Hans-Christoph Steiner @eighthave@librem.one

@tootiredtothink @nanoelquant @Lazycog@mastodon.online Right, and Austria's security is certainly not based on our military, it would be basically useless against any large scale invasion. Our security is based on being strategically neutral, and being the home to #UN #OPEC #OSCE and many other international organizations. Austria chose this strategy. Austria's situation now is not comparable to Ukraine. When Austria was forced to be neutral, it was in a very similar position to what Ukraine is now.

@tootiredtothink @nanoelquant Austria sent a small contingent of soldiers to Afghanistan that mostly did logistics then some police work. It peaked at something like 100 solders, but was 5-10 soldiers for most of the duration of the war. This was a symbolic contribution, and was also largely based on UN Security Council decisions rather than duties from a military alliance. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatz_des_Bundesheeres_in_Afghanistan

@nanoelquant @Lazycog@mastodon.online we also have a giant monument in one of the main squares of #Vienna thanking the #Soviet army for liberating us. We have to keep it forever as part of the treaty that ended the occupation. People hated it for a long time, but in the end, it does not really limit our freedom, and it was an important symbol for the #Soviets. I think that it was a brilliant move by the Austrian negotiators to accept it.

@nanoelquant @Lazycog@mastodon.online yes exactly, Austria was forced by military invasion and occupation to become neutral. That occupation was mostly Russians and directed from Moscow. Now, neutrality is immensely popular with Austrians, and all but one minor political party fully support it. It can work very well, much better than any military alliance, so #Ukraine really should keep it in consideration, especially because its clear they won't be allowed into #NATO any time soon.

@vitali64sur Could you try installing version 1.17.0? I believe that's fixed now

Europe has a long history of destroying river ecosystems throughout the continent by building dams.This contributes a lot to #ClimateChange. The #EU is exporting this, by paying for new dams in pristine ecosystems, for example, in the #Balkans, where the locals have long history of keeping nature intact and wild. Places like #Bosnia and #Albania should export their knowledge to the EU, what is happening is vice versa and now we watch more "dams destroy rivers completely"

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/10/world/neretva-river-save-the-blue-heart-of-europe-c2e-spc-intl/index.html

@nanoelquant @Lazycog@mastodon.online Austria's neutrality was also forced by a deal between the Soviet Union, France, UK, and USA. But it has worked, and is immensely popular in Austria now. Finland's situation now is quite different than both Ukraine and Austria. Finland was already spending more on than NATO's 2% requirement, and it has a long border with Russia. It will be interesting to see how the Finns feel about NATO when they have to join in some pointless yet devastating invasion like Afghanistan.

Hey @cpu good to see you here! Welcome!

@Lazycog@mastodon.online @nanoelquant Finland became neutral after the Soviet Union's invasion. That is what I'm referring to. Allying with Sweden and Germany means Finland was not neutral then.

@nanoelquant And Austria and Finland provide possible examples of how neutrality could work for Ukraine. Austria was neutral while Soviet tanks rolled into our neighbors Hungary and Czechoslovakia. They did not invade Austria, even though militarily, it would have been simple for the Soviets to take over Austria. They had done it before. I know at lot less about it, but #Finland's situation during World War Two looks quite similar to Ukraine's now. Finland was neutral yet not invaded again.

@nanoelquant Joining military alliances also means getting dragged into the wars of other countries. You can see that over the history of #NATO. Right now, it is plain to see how Putin is leaning on Belarus to join in the war of Ukraine, and tried with Kazakhstan too.

Consider #Trump does not seem to like NATO and could be the next US President https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/04/john-bolton-trump-nato-2024

NATO won't let Ukraine join until the war is settled. After that, its not clear Ukraine benefits. Neutrality might work better

@nanoelquant Switzerland and Sweden have been neutral for centuries, they were not taken over by the Nazis or Soviets, unlike all of their neighbors. So saying military alliances will save a country from invasions is overlooking actual history. It is not that simple.

@nanoelquant And also consider that #NATO and #US directly supported terrorist militants in Kosovo, where they remain problematic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

@nanoelquant I think this leaves out the part where #NATO started a 20 year #bullshit war in #Afghanistan, disasterous involvement in #Libya, and key NATO members invaded #Iraq because they wanted its oil. Sure, joining NATO could stop #Russia from invading, but then you're contributing to invading other countries.

@FeralRobots @librarianshipwreck that's a great analogy. Your SAT analogy struck a chord, I was always good at standardized tests, even in subjects I was not good in. I got 790/800 in the math SAT, and I barely could make it through calculus. That always left me the impression that standardized tests don't really measure capability or knowledge, but more the window dressing around capability and knowledge.

wow, the @EU_Commission 's grants website includes a #Panic button!