Elias @eliasr@librem.one

@clacke Also, if we classify people as wither racist or not, we lose the ability to detect our own racist behavior. "I'm not a racist, so what I said/did could never be racist" is a quite silly way of thinking.

You were talking about transphobia rather than racism, but I'm pretty sure the same thing applies: much better to focus on actions rather than putting a label on a person, as if that behavior is a some kind of definition of who that person is, that is really unfair to that person.

2/2

@clacke

> rms took transphobic and ablist action

Kudos for separating the actions from the person!

I'm involved with an organization working against racism, and in that context this issue has come up repeatedly. One thing I learned there, listening to experts on that kind of thing, is that it is generally not useful to label a person as "racist" when in fact it is some specific actions that are racist. Labeling the person as racist reduces the chances of better behavior in the future.

1/2

@hicks@mstdn.io @alexl@mstdn.io

Aha, good, so you can see those.

Then let me ask you, do you agree with my interpretation of that abortion joke in the GNU libc manual?

I'm wondering if there is some way to reasonably interpret it as "misogynist" to keep that joke in the manual, something I might have missed.

@billblake2018@liberdon.com Don't worry.

Quoting Cedric Daniels in that glorious TV show The Wire: I, for one, am a patient motherfucker.

@billblake2018@liberdon.com Thanks. Let me just work a little longer on it, the elephant will soon be done. 😄

@hicks@mstdn.io

> I might havebeen blocked

Aha, maybe that is why you did not see the replies from that person. Let me know if you still cannot see those toots (I started replying about the abortion joke issue), let me know as in that case I can report back to you later on how that little debate played out.

@alexl@mstdn.io

@hicks@mstdn.io

Agreed, blaming all on Facebook is simplifying too much. This mastodon/fediverse place where we are now certainly has a bit of the same kind of problem, although I think it is less bad compared to Facebook because we don't have a huge company manipulating us, at least I hope not.

> no arguments from the instigators/supporter of #rms removal.

There is one person who answered me, if you go back here and look at replies:

https://social.librem.one/web/statuses/105970251527623867

Honest debate is not dead yet 🙂

@alexl@mstdn.io

@hicks@mstdn.io @alexl@mstdn.io

> not react too fast

That, I think, is an increasingly important quality in the world today.

It would be great if there was a way to make people think more before they react.

For me it is hard to ignore the connection to the rise of surveillance capitalism in recent years. Things like Facebook making money by steering people's behavior towards many quick clicks, shortening the attention span more and more. It's getting worse, I wonder if we as a society can turn it around.

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org Considering the points I just made about the abortion joke, will you concede that your criticism in that case was based on a misunderstanding? If not, please explain how that joke issue contributes to you calling RMS a "misogynist".

Let me also ask if you, in calling RMS a misogynist, have considered the fact that he has consistently defended women's rights when it comes to the abortion issue? Many people consider that a pretty important issue.

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org Valid criticism based on the abortion joke could be, for example:

- RMS is alienating people with strong "pro-life" opinions

- RMS is making technical documentation messy by including irrelevant things like jokes in it

- RMS is micromanaging GNU, he should have let the person responsible for the glibc manual make the decision without interfering

Of the above, I think the most valid one is the third, about RMS doing misusing his leading position by into such details.

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org It is true that people have criticized RMS for his fighting to keep that joke in the manual. There can be reasons for criticism here, but really not for calling him "misogynist". On the contrary, valid criticism could be that he is making "pro life" supporters feel less inclined to use GNU software. RMS is effectively using his power as GNU chief to further his pro-choice opinion. Does that really contribute to you calling him a "misogynist"?

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org My understanding of that joke is that it makes fun of some proposed federal censorship regulations. The joke is defending the right to abort as well as the right to abort().

It is basically saying: each person should have the right to make their own decisions both regarding their own computer, and regarding their own body.

The fact that RMS is "pro choice" on the abortion issue can be looked up elsewhere I think, it is not surprising given that he usually defends freedom.

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org The joke is in the documentation of the abort() function in glibc, it looks like this: (here I have taken a screenshot from page 709 in https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/glibc-2.2.3/pdf/libc.pdf)

@lionirdeadman@fosstodon.org Thanks a lot for explaining, this helped my understand better.

I will ask you about one particular point, please don't take that as dismissing the other things you wrote. I appreciate all your points but I want to ask about one particular thing, namely the issue of RMS fighting to keep an abortion joke in technical documentation.

The reason is that I looked that one up myself the other day, and found it interesting. Let me explain.

(to be continued)

Regarding #RMS and the letter to remove him from all leadership positions, this makes several important points: https://www.arp242.net/rms.html

Bottom line, that I agree with: "being unfair is being unfair, no matter who the target may be".

Anyone here who signed that letter who would consider explaining their thinking? Looking for someone who both read it and signed it, knowing what you were signing and who is still standing by the claims in the letter. Anyone?

@akenyg Ett annat tips är Feministiskt initiativ, för den som vill göra motstånd mot nationalismen och understryka vikten av mänskliga rättigheter.

@douginamug I agree that is really relevant and well written.

I would have been very interested to hear from some of the (surprisingly many) people who signed the letter, what they think about this.

Could it be that some of them signed it without having read it carefully themselves, just joining in and trusting it was good because they saw so many others had signed already? I suspect that is what happened. Not that it's any excuse, it's pretty important to know what you are signing.

@clacke @alexl@mstdn.io @claudiom@mastodon.sdf.org
(8/8)

Tying this back to the first problem, the github letter makes everything much worse. Giving in to the demands of the github letter would signal that it was successful, thus encouraging more such behavior in the future.

The mindset behind the github letter presents a real danger to our society in a fundamental way. If this is how we commmunicate and how we make decisions now, then we are in big trouble.

@clacke @alexl@mstdn.io @claudiom@mastodon.sdf.org
(7/8)

I have a hard time beleiving that all those people would have signed the github letter if they had carefully read it first and thought for a moment about the consequences of their own actions. My best guess is that most of them just heard there was a petition, asked "how do I sign" and then signed it, not really knowing what it said other than it was a petition to remove RMS from the FSF.