Breaking the phone you plan to demo with is always fun.

Fixing it, even more so!
Just need a keyboard and run 1 command.

2 hours to go debconf23.debconf.org/talks/61

I'm a bit concerned about the frequent power losses at the hotel though :D

I'll add image descriptions later, need to work on my slides :P
and need to go for a swim!

#DebConf23 #Debian #MobileLinux #phosh #gnome

@devrtz
Interesting... Is it in an usable state now? I went for the Pinephone Pro (originally ordered a Librem 5 but asked for a refund after 2 years from the order), but it doesn't have much love unfortunately. I also have the Mobian normal version, but its hardware is too weak! :oh_no:
I surely watch your presentation once available!
@purism

@deedend @purism

The PPP is too weak for you?
What exactly do you plan to do with it?
For me, the primary issue is that the kernel is just not mature enough. To change that I would assume that it would take some serious dev work and mainlining to really become interesting to *me*. Of course YMMV , but if you don't care about any of that (and I'm not saying you do) I don't see why you wouldn't "simply" run sth on top of Android using libhybris, e.g. #droidian

1/N

@devrtz
No, the normal Pinephone is too weak... The PPP would be more than enough if only it was a bit more reliable and less power hungry. For me, the whole point of using a Linux phone is to avoid libhybris altogether. I don't really like all those converted Android phones out there, not now that we could potentially have a couple of alternatives like the Librem 5 (which is definitely too expensive) and the PPP.
@purism

@deedend @purism

I don't see PPP becoming a viable option any time soon.

OP6 is super interesting (no cameras yet, though).

> too expensive

it might suprise you to learn that
a) developers like to eat
b) lower order quantities means higher prices (if manufactures bother speaking to you at all)

@devrtz
Yeah, I'm of the same idea: it'll take time, if it ever happens, for the PPP to become a viable solution, unfortunately. But considering that the Librem 5 took 6 years from the announcement to the stage that it is now, I guess is an issue of this kind of alternative phone.

In regards to the developers that like to eat, and the quantities that drive the price, it doesn't exclude the fact that 1000USD for the Librem 5 is disproportionated
@purism

@deedend

>In regards to the developers that like to eat, and the quantities that drive the price, it doesn't exclude the fact that 1000USD for the Librem 5 is disproportionated

So what you're saying is I shouldn't eat? Or should eat less?
(The last one is probably **actually** true)

Knowing full well that @purism
pretty much kickstarted this whole thing, lots of other distros/phones benefiting and arguably succeeded where e.g. Canonical has not?

#MobileLinux

1/2

@deedend @purism

@deedend @purism

E.g. the panel driver used on the PP (and perhaps PPP too - dunno) was written by @agx for the L5 devkit.

youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8

'nuff said

2/2

#MobileLinux

@devrtz
Also, I don't take away anything from the fact that Purism did a lot of good for the Linux mobile community, and I thank them for that. I'm a fan of them, but I simply don't want/can't afford to spend all that money on a phone that is full of limitations and at the moment just a hobby for me. I wish one day we will have an affordable, fully functional Linux phone, ready for being use as such, just for what I see is not the time yet

@purism @agx

Follow

@deedend @devrtz @purism I encourage everyone to try PureOS on the Librem 5 to judge daily usability of the Librem 5 and if it's "the time yet".

One shouldn't draw that conclusion by looking at other devices (running other distros).

A single missing one line line patch or broken driver can considerably mess up daily usability.

@agx
I've ordered a Librem 5 in the kickstarter campaign back in 2017, after more than 2 years of waiting I decided to ask for a refund (got it at the end of 2019). Now it's definitely too expensive for me at the current price (I also have less money to spend in this sort of stuff now). Saying that, I still would love to try a Librem 5 and see how it is in RL, but being in Australia I believe it's impossible
@devrtz @purism

@deedend @devrtz @purism Australia is big but I know there's folks there with Librem 5s so maybe a meetup style thing is possible at one point.

@agx
I would love to go to a simil meet up in Melbourne... Where can I find info about this sort of stuff? Any clue?
@devrtz @purism

@deedend @agx @purism

I was thinking conferences?
Any idea if linux.org.au/linux-conf-au/ will take place this year?

Or maybe Linux User Groups?

Adding some relevant hashtags (boosts appreciated), maybe someone will see and will let your play with the device a little!

#australia #foss #MobileLinux #Librem5

@deedend Not going to be near Melbourne any time soon, but L5s are definitely usable in this part of the world.

@deedend @devrtz @purism I'd try forums.puri.sm/ . I've also posted a message to the community/librem5 matrix channel linking to this post

@agx @deedend @devrtz @purism
I have been daily driving mine since February of this year. Before that, I daily drove the PPP for a year and before that I daily drove the PP for a year.
The was a major step up in quality and usability from day one. I loved my pinephones, but I don't think that I could go back to them.

@agx @deedend @devrtz @purism even if the phone's software works well, mobile Linux is not the same platform as desktop Linux, for apps.

For example, I use Signal to communicate with people, and Matrix to communicate with communities.

Both Signal and Element are Electron apps, which aren't optimised for phones.

There's Flare and Fractal of course, but neither are ready to replace Signal and Element at this point.

Therefore, mobile Linux just isn't an option for me at the moment.

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism

Sure, I understand how everyone has different needs and how they may not **yet** be met.

I'm wondering what is missing for you to be able to daily drive fractal? Iit has been a long time since I last tried it: I'm stubbornly using chatty even though it can be a bit painful - I'm a masochist like that :P

1/2

#MobileLinux #gnome

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism

Same question for Flare, which I also don't use because I don't do #signal .
And are there perhaps issues filed that would give me a perspective on what's missing?

Maybe these are things where @schmiddionmobile could use some help?

In my talks I always recommend people relying on #signal to try/use Flare, so I'm also afraid of giving out misguided advice :P

(not too much though)

2/2

#MobileLinux #gnome

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile The main issue with all Linux phone messaging except for Chatty are notifications in my experience, when it comes to Fractal and Flare both are cool apps but nether of them is in a state that should be used for secure communications and nether of them is finished. That's the case with tons of cool apps in general, the entire ecosystem evolved a lot but it's not even close to finished and often a pain to use, not daily driver material

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile The by far biggest issue remains battery life tho, that's just fucking horrible on desktop Linux if you compare it to Android or iOS and in some cases even god damn Windows and MacOS!

@Fosstonaut @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile

Understandable. For me personally it suffices, but of course there's a reason I will carry a power bank when I know that I will be on the road for longer times ;)

I can pretty much only talk about the #Librem5 here as this is the device I'm using daily/the most (I do have PP and PPP at home, but the L5 is just the most enjoyable out of these three).

And there it can carry me through a typical working day w/o powerbank.

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile I never owned a Librem5 but I assume it's a little better than my PP in that regard, if I had to guess probably still worse than my OnePlus 6T with LinageOS and it's half broken battery which is too little for me already so nothing I would do. I tried to daily drive mobile Linux two or three years ago, it was painful then and many of the majore issues barely got addressed but if it's working for you that's great!

@Fosstonaut @julianfairfax @deedend @schmiddionmobile

I mean I work with @purism on the #Librem5 and I strongly believe in dogfooding. Because if the developers cannot use their own products than how are enthusiasts or even the general populace supposed to use this?!

This way bugs usually get found, diagnosed and fixed quicker, because they annoy us too :P

Just as an example (which impresses me to this day):

@agx has been running #phosh on his laptop pretty much from day one.

@devrtz @julianfairfax @deedend @schmiddionmobile @purism @agx That's very true! I am a enthusiast for the concept from day one and even tho I was dissapointed with the kind of progress that makes it more usable as a phone multiple times I still play around with my PP regularly and it's only getting cooler, especially the progress in Phosh is awesome to watch, it's slow but consistant and remains relatively stable!

@Fosstonaut @devrtz @julianfairfax @deedend @schmiddionmobile @agx

Speaking of the PP and phosh:
I'm amazed, how well the shell itself works on the hardware.

Launching any application is a different story however ;)

@devrtz @Fosstonaut @deedend @schmiddionmobile @agx I got a PP, because I wanted to try mobile Linux and I can't justify paying $1000 for a phone (any phone).

It "works", but is very slow. Now, granted, this is the base model, but mobile Linux is a lot less optimised than Android. So, you'll always need more specs.

The PPP is better, but it has issues with hardware support.

So, that leaves me without a real option for now. Hopefully the Fairphone will work well on mobile Linux!

@julianfairfax @Fosstonaut @deedend @schmiddionmobile @agx

The thing about the price I definitely understand. It is not exactly pocket change,
see also
the thread at social.librem.one/@purism/1110

I'm definitely also rooting for @fairphone . Would be really cool to have #postmarketOS as an officially supported option!

Of course I'd love to see people support and buy from @purism but at the end of the day: The more manufacturers, phones, developers and users we have the better it is for everyone!

@Fosstonaut @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile

When you say notifications you mean push notifications that will wake your phone up?
Yeah that area will definitely need some love.

For me this is not a huge problem as I personally operate more in pull mode anyway and I do social stuff usually in bursts and then I want my piece and quiet :D

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile I do all of my communication except with some online friends through Signal for years now and I definitely don't want them for E.g. my Mastodon client but I do need some push notifications, still disappointed how little they looked at Libpurple before making promises for Chatty btw!

@Fosstonaut @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile

>still disappointed how little they looked at Libpurple before making promises for Chatty btw!

Sorry, I don't quite follow. Can you elaborate?
E.g. who is they?
and are we still talking about signal?

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile Purism promised to support Signal and Matrix in Chatty very early on through Libpurple which turned out to be a disaster. According to them we should have had support for both shortly after release of the Librem5 but that never happened because the "universal" library is a unusable mess with some addons even beeing hard coded to the main client (Pidgin)!

@Fosstonaut

I think it's fair to say that some of the marketing has been ... overly optimistic ;)
(and more importantly the original plans of collaborating with the matrix foundation to develop matrix support in chatty iirc have not quite worked out)

Anyway,
if you're interested:
this is the current roadmap for #matrix support in chatty:

source.puri.sm/Librem5/chatty/

PS: As always, all opinions are my own.

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile currently there's an issue where you can't sync your contacts. gitlab.com/schmiddi-on-mobile/

This will of course be fixed, but it shows how unstable a third-party Signal client is.

There's an issue for some users, including me, that can be summarised as unreliable sending of messages, a big problem for a messaging app. gitlab.com/schmiddi-on-mobile/

The upstream library developers have tried to fix it, but so far haven't succeeded. github.com/whisperfish/presage

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile additionally, primary device support, which will added to Flare one day, is almost essential to daily drive it on mobile Linux.

Otherwise, you would have to link Flare with something like signal-cli, and have that always running.

Plus, to do something such as add a new contact, you would have to then use signal-cli, and, as the name implies, you would have to do that from the terminal.

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile the biggest thing you (or anyone else) can do for Flare, is to get more developers to take a look it.

I'm sure the issues with Flare and with presage (these two being the biggest) can be fixed, but both have few developers with limited time.

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile

Well I can boost this, but as I'm not using it and I'm sadly too stupid for #rust I'm afraid that's almost all that I personally can do ;)

#gnome #MobileLinux #signal #foss

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile thank you!

Hopefully as Flare becomes more visible in the mobile Linux space, it will receive the help it needs to grow up and become a premier Signal client for Linux.

A similar thing happened with Railway, another one of the Schmiddi on Mobile apps, which is for train information.

@tbernard and Markus Göllnitz came along and gave the app a much needed visual overhaul, and made it a lot more usable too!

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard

Yes, this community can be pretty amazing!

And I'm excited for the day @schmiddionmobile apps will be packaged in #Debian

flame war incoming in 3... 2.... 1... 🤪

#MobileLinux #phosh #gnome

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile

Actually @werdahias is doing amazing work on packaging #gtk #rust for #Debian

but they will definitely need more help from the community!

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile personally I like Flatpaks, and they make development and releasing faster, which is important for an app that could stop working or that could require fast security fixes.

My own (ongoing) experience of trying to package proton-bridge though, has left me with little interest to personally package anything else for Debian. lists.debian.org/debian-go/202

Maybe one day!

@julianfairfax @devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile I was about to point that out too, once we get a GUI app to a Flatpak remote distro packaging brcomes a lot less relevant and might even be better to do if the interest is high enough to properly maintain it too rather than just package it to have a package!

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile it may also make more sense to package for Debian once the app is more stable and more usable.

Maybe once it has primary device support, works reliably, and reaches 1.0 stage, then it can be packaged for Debian, because it won't need fast updates anymore.

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile

Fast updates have never been an issue for #Debian if you run sid/testing (modulo the freeze of course).

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile

For me the top reasons to prefer a #Debian package over #flatpak any day of the week are:
- Excellent security track record. To be honest I don't exactly trust upstream developers to be aware of all the vulnerabilities in all libraries that they use
- I know and trust #Debian people because of the shared values (social contract and DFSG)

And if someone takes licensing seriously it's these old farts :)

debian.org/social_contract

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile just to be clear, I wouldn't be against Flare being packaged for Debian (and it's not really up to me, or anyone, since it's free software).

I have no intention of doing it at the moment though.

And, I personally don't think this is the right time for it.

At the very least, that contacts syncing issue should be fixed first. Then ideally also the message reliability (but that has been going on for a while).

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile obviously different people have different skills too (I can't code in rust for example), but I feel developer time would be better spent fixing issues like this, than packaging for every distro available.

There's a time and a place for distribution, and right now I believe we are in the development stage, rather than the release everywhere stage.

The more developer help we have, the quicker we can get to that stage.

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile

Sure, but consider that distro maintainers often end up sending patches for bugs their users report!

(I certainly do)

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard well we certainly extend our warmest invitation to anyone wishing to package Flare, Pipeline, or Railway for Debian, or any another distribution!

@schmiddionmobile @devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard I think your approach is really good in that regard, provide a official Flatpak and leave the rest up to the distributions, I usually prefer a well maintained package from my distros repo but it shouldn't be the job of the developer to support those!

@schmiddionmobile @devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard BTW, do you have any plan (short or longer term) to package gitlab.com/schmiddi-on-mobile/ on crates.io ? I had a quick look at Railway yesterday, checked how difficult it would be to package for Debian, and realized that's pretty much the only thing missing

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile the hostility on either side is not nice. Those declaring either Flatpaks or traditional packages as the enemy don't realise that Linux is about choice.

However, I don't believe it should be on the app developer to fix issues or package for every format.

If a developer knows Flatpaks or Debian packages best, they should develop with those, and the community can take care of the rest (though verification of Flatpaks would be nice).

@julianfairfax @purism @agx @tbernard @schmiddionmobile @deedend @devrtz

with my user hat on, I fully agree that upstream devs shouldn't be the ones doing the packaging for any distribution, because this way if something¹ happens to upstream there is somebody in between to protect the users.

¹ from being bought by an hostile company to *being* an hostile company, to just being an individual and deciding that they want to move on to something else.

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile

Yes, bad blood can certainly be found on both sides of the spectrum.

I also agree that app developers should not need to package for every distro under the sun (but I don't think anyone made that claim).

If your application is interesting, someone (experienced) will package it without you having to do anything.

> ... that Linux is about choice

listman.redhat.com/archives/fe ;)

@devrtz @julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile I usually prefer a well maintained distribution package for most things but security certainly isn't a reason to go with a debian package, the script handling it all is very problematic in that regard and they don't have Sandboxing which can prevent a lot of bad things!

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile I run testing personally, and I still use Flatpaks.

Other reasons aside, update speed is still one. I got GNOME 44 like two weeks ago.

I know this is because of the stable release, but that was in three months ago.

Debian update speed is probably my biggest issue with it.

Also, because I use testing, by definition, it's not supposed to be stable. It *could* stop working.

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @tbernard @schmiddionmobile that's another thing I don't like too much: components are updated individually.

Most things were 43 a few weeks ago. Then most were released from 44. But, some were already 45 before, and some were 45 when most were release from 44.

It's hard to keep track of the version of GNOME you're using, when each app is a slightly different, sometimes out-of-date, or pre-release, version.

@julianfairfax @devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile @tbernard I didn't actually try the overhauled version yet, is it just in the looks debartment or are some of the selection boxes and stuff more usable on mobile too? (The app was a little tricky to navigate on mobile last time I tried)

@Fosstonaut @devrtz @agx @deedend @purism @schmiddionmobile @tbernard I haven't personally tried it on mobile yet.

But, the usability has improved drastically, and it uses all the modern libadwaita widgets, so it should be the most mobile-friendly as possible.

@julianfairfax @devrtz @agx @deedend

PSA:
Flare is a third party client designed to run on

If you want to use on , are passionate about and know :

@schmiddionmobile would surely appreciate code contributions to fix some of the issues mentioned fosstodon.org/@julianfairfax/1

Have a look at
gitlab.com/schmiddi-on-mobile/

Thanks to everyone working on the ecosystem (and by extension: a better world 🌈 )

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism

I guess a (really) good matrix client should also be able to deal with spaces (and subspaces) properly. Is that one of the issues you're facing?

@devrtz @agx @deedend @purism it is still in beta. The last stable version is two years old.

One of the issues that needs to be fixed before another stable release is that it uses a lot of resources.

That makes it slow on desktop Linux and practically unusable on mobile Linux.

@agx @deedend @devrtz @purism there are also lesser issues, such as with calendar sync.

If you use Proton Calendar, then you have no app for mobile Linux.

You can use Nextcloud for calendars, but then you'll have to set it up, just to be able to use mobile Linux comfortably.

(And this is just me, but I can't port forward my Nextcloud instance, so I use Tailscale. However, GNOME has a bug where you can't add a Nextcloud instance with a self-signed certificate.)

@agx @deedend @devrtz @purism this is more of an issue with the state of privacy-respecting calendar syncing solutions, than it is a mobile Linux issue though.

But, this is the kind of stuff you'll run into, because your device is such a niche product.

Finding open source apps for Android is hard, finding those for desktop Linux is harder. Now you want an open source app for Linux mobile devices?

So much will be missing, because Android and iOS are "mobile" platforms, Linux isn't.

@julianfairfax @agx @deedend @purism

I very much appreciate your thoughts on this.

Of course Android and iOS have a teeny tiny little headstart, but I'm sure we will catch up eventually.

Because #foss is a real enabler and equalizer.
Also this shit has A LOT of potential. Just think about how things were 2 years back (and I daily drove PP and L5 back then - have I said how I'm a masochist? :D ) and let your mind wander to where we might be in another 2 years if developers keep hacking at it!

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