@malwaretech
Really? I hadn't heard of any anti-semitic or socialist posts from him. What exactly did he say that was nazi related?
@Leroy @malwaretech
Sure, explain to me how the National Socialists weren't "real" socialists.
@jlcrawf @malwaretech they weren't socialists at all. They adopted the word socialism to seem cool to the less informed working class people in the wake of post-WWI economic struggles. The "national" in "national socialism" is what you should be looking at aka nationalism which is a component of fascism, which was the actual Nazi ideology.
@Leroy @jlcrawf @malwaretech in the end all is propaganda including the name
Just block this motherfucker and move on. He's either the stupidest person on earth, or he's malevolent. Either way, it's absolutely not worth engaging.
@KFuentesGeorge @jlcrawf @malwaretech I don't agree with blocking people and moving on when there's an opportunity to educate. Clearly some people are just bad faith actors but for the most part I would rather suffer the most minimal blow to my social media experience by breaking stuff down for people than instantly assuming everyone is incapable of learning. We won't bring about the revolution without undoing decades of mass indoctrination
@Leroy @jlcrawf@librem.one @malwaretech
You do you, but there is no way a grown-ass person in the Year of Saucy Santana 2023 saying "Nazis were socialists" is open to learning. Either learn to cut your losses, or prepare yourself for constant disappointment.
@KFuentesGeorge @malwaretech most people in the US probably think the Nazis are socialists and that's due to decades of aggressive propaganda projecting the ills of capitalism and fascism onto socialism and it certainly didn't start with conflating the blatantly obviously fascist Nazi regime with socialism, that just happens to be a prime example of it. Undoing all that brain rot takes more effort than I could ever give and I'm well aware of that, but if I can do it in even one person I know I'm helping do my part. And in the mean time I tend to meet some pretty cool people in the wake of arguing with the shitheads so it sorta balances out.
@Leroy @malwaretech
This is not an explanation of how they were not socialist. This is you simply stating that they were not. I am still waiting for my explanation.
@jlcrawf @malwaretech it is an explanation. That's all there was to it. It was a grift. It got them into power, then they showed their true colors. I even gave you some historical context. I shouldn't have to define socialism and nationalism in order for you to be able to participate in this discussion, the definitions for both are readily available on the internet.
And before you say it because everyone else I've ever had this talk with (and I hope you're different but I'm sure you're not) is a horseshoe theory enjoyer, horseshoe theory is bullshit, fish hook theory forever. Anything right of center is guaranteed to have awful fascist philosophy behind it in some way, whether covertly or blatantly.
@Leroy @malwaretech
Again, you saying it does not make it true. If the National Socialists were not "real" socialists, then it should be very simple to say, the tenets of socialism are ....., the nazis believed ......., they failed at socialism because ......
You have not done that. You keep saying that they are not socialists, but you have done absolutely nothing to expalin why.
@jlcrawf @malwaretech socialism is about putting more control in the hands of the people, particularly in relation to labor. The Nazis clearly didn't do that. They consolidated all the power upward to their God Emperor so he could create a eugenicist ethnostate
@Leroy @malwaretech
Thank you. In our entire dialogue, this is the first actual argument for why nazis were not socialist. I am at work now, so, I will respond to the actual argument later, but I just wanted to thank you for trying to provide one rather than simply stick with "because I said so"
@jlcrawf @malwaretech I don't appreciate the fact that telling you that historically the initial Nazi movement was a grift to get workers on board with nationalism isn't somehow a real argument to you. It's like the political version of your parents sneaking broccoli into foods you like to get you to eat more vegetables, except instead of broccoli they fed you arsenic
@Leroy @malwaretech
I could say that Black Lives Matter is a grift, because they clearly do not care about black lives.
I could say that Antifa is a grift because they are clearly a fascist organization.
But if I do not explain how that BLM does not care about black lives or if I do not explain how Antifa is fascist, it is merely me saying so.
In the same way, you saying that the nazis were using socialism as a grift is not an argument if you do not explain how they were not socialist.
@jlcrawf @malwaretech ok you're definitely a bad actor after that one
@Leroy @malwaretech
I am confused about how my using your exact argument with other groups makes me a bad actor.
Does this not show the fallacy in your argument?
The point was to show that saying somebody is a grift is not valid without presenting any evidence that they are indeed a grift.
In the case of this discussion, it would seem to be fairly simple to show where the ideology of nazism is different than the ideology of socialism. Something that you have yet to even attempt to do.
"Fascism is when authority is centralized."
This is such a stupid take. The national socialists EXPLICITLY were not monarchists, nor were they theocrats.
@Leroy @malwaretech
There is no question that the nazis consolidated their power, however, I am having difficulty coming up with an example of a socialist country that has not consolidated their power to a central government. Quite often with dictatorships. While this may not be the ideal socialist model, it is the most used socialist model and hardly enough to disqualify them from being considered socialist.
I always find it fascinating when people try to make "Socialism" into something cohesive, something categorized.
"the end justifies the means" is not a cohesive or even a rational practice.
Turning every and all aspects of civic live into political activism is not sustainable, it will destroy any civilization.
"Vote Blue No Matter Who" is a totalitarian political policy.
Please stop trying to make Socialism work...
Most communities in the USA functioned well enough before the Socialists showed up.
here's og joseph goebbels rubbing it in your fucking face
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/haken32.htm
@troglodyt @Leroy @malwaretech
Having now read the entire section titled Why we are socialists? You have dobe nothing to convince me that they were not socialist.
Let me help you, a good argument would look like, the tenets of socialism are ....., but the nazis believe ..... and they fail at socialism because ....
@jlcrawf @troglodyt @Leroy @malwaretech It's quite simple, really. Socialism is good because, I can be entitled to other people's stuff without having to work for it myself. Nazis are bad. Therefore Nazis cannot be socialists and anybody that says something that I don't like is a Nazi. Oh and anybody that doesn't want to give me their stuff and do what I want or tells me no, is a fascist. Conversely, Its ok for me to force you to do what I want and that is not tyrany, its sweetness and light.
no you did not
it's very explicit about class peace, racial superiority and ultranationalism
@troglodyt @Leroy @malwaretech
In why we are socialist section, he explains why he ties nationalism to socialism. He does not believe that it would work without it. That does not disqualify him from being a socialist, nor does it imply that he is lying about socialism to gain followers.
Again, the simplest way to show that nazis were not socialist would be to lay out the tenets of socialism vs the tenets of nazism and show how nazism fails.
no he does not, he explains that what he calls socialism has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism, by very explicitly grounding it in a class peace, the polar opposite of the socialist 'no war but class war'
@troglodyt @Leroy @malwaretech
See, that is an example of what I am looking for. Differences between nazis and socialists.
Although, if I understood what you wrote correctly, it seems that you are trying to make the point that socialists are calling for class warfare, whereas nazis want peace between the classes.
@jlcrawf @troglodyt @malwaretech peace between classes means peace with the oppressor, which is a one way street
@Leroy @troglodyt @malwaretech
That garbage aside, the only expalanation anyone has come up with for how nazis are not "real" socialists, is that nazis want peace between classes while socialists want class warfare.
If that is the only difference, that is not enough to convince me that they were not "real" socialists.
@jlcrawf @troglodyt @malwaretech read a fucking book then idk what to tell you that you're not just gonna write off. Socialism and fascism are two wildly different ideologies and the Nazis were fascists. It doesn't matter what they called themselves, I could call myself the president that doesn't make me the president. You have to look at their fucking policy choices not their naming conventions. I can't give you an entire history lesson in one reply. Just please understand you're not the first person to be this ignorant and people way smarter than me have way better answers for you just a couple of clicks away and have had these answers for a long time
@Leroy @troglodyt @malwaretech
You have yet to name a single policy choice that sets them apart. You are the one that said "don't make me explain" how they are different. I took that to mean that an explanation existed. So far, the only explanations provided were, "they lied", "they developed a ruling class", and "they wanted peace between classes".
@Leroy @troglodyt @malwaretech
As previously stated, "they lied" is not an explanation, if you do not show where the lie is.
"they developed a ruling class" is not an explanation because this always happens.
"they want peace between classes" you did not provide this argument, however, in this thread, you have both defended class warfare, then sayed that nazis don't want peace between classes, so I don't see how this sets them apart.
@jlcrawf @troglodyt @malwaretech your willful ignorance and purposeful dumbing down of concepts to fit your narrow worldview is disgusting. If you're so hell bent on defending the Nazis of all people then the only explanation is that you are one, and you'll be dealt with as such. With the block button, and with these hands if you ever find yourself in my presence
@Leroy @troglodyt @malwaretech
At no point, during this entire thread have I ever defended the nazis. You said that you could explain how they aren't really socialists, yet you have failed to name a single difference between them.
Even in your last post where you are threatening physical violence against those with a different point of view, you are showing how closely aligned with nazis, you socialists really are.
@troglodyt @Leroy @malwaretech
thanks for playing.
@jlcrawf @troglodyt @malwaretech and again, Nazis don't want peace between classes, they want to be the ruling class and subjugate the other classes. The supposed peace they have is enforced at the end of a gun and the entire system is held up on the backs of the labor those guns are pointed at
@Leroy @troglodyt @malwaretech
I am not the one that claimed that nazis wanted peace between classes, that was the argument given in this thread.
What you just descibed though sounds just like North Korea, Venezuala, China, and the old USSR. So again, hiw does this make the nazis any different?
the reason you need 'convincing' is that these terms, e.g. socialism, carry no meaning for you. they only have a shape on the screen you recognise
this is why you can look at a piece where goebbels explains why and how they are not part of the workers' liberation movement and should not be confused with communists, syndicalists, social democrats, &c., and not see how it's about distancing from socialist movements
@jlcrawf @Leroy @malwaretech #ffs nazis did good job tricking people they were socialists, heck, even after 80 years. And just with a single word on their name. I can imagine their conversation when they created the name:
"They won't fall for this, will they?"
"Just watch, lol"
@mihamarkic @jlcrawf @malwaretech to be fair to the people in the US our own government had a lot more than one word to say in the complete vilification and attempted eradication of socialism. Continuing to conflate the Nazis with socialism just helps their cause
@Leroy @mihamarkic @malwaretech
In actuality, in the US, nazis are more often conflated with the right, probably for the very same reasons that you mention here.
@jlcrawf @mihamarkic @malwaretech no they're not conflated with the right wing, they just are the right wing.
@Leroy @mihamarkic @malwaretech
No, they never havve been. The left simply wants to demonize the right, so the refer to them as nazis. However, the nazis ideology was closer to the left than to the right.
@jlcrawf @mihamarkic @malwaretech in order to make that incredibly wrong statement you clearly already do have definitions of both socialism and fascism floating around in your head somewhere so please, by all means, define them both. Make yourself look even more brainless than you just did
@jlcrawf @Leroy @malwaretech In all the normal world nazis are on the right.
@mihamarkic @Leroy @malwaretech
Well, when one of you finally comes forth with an actual argument for why the National Socialists were not "real" socialists, maybe we can then discuss what about their ideology puts them on the right.
@jlcrawf @mihamarkic @malwaretech do you know what horseshoe theory is? Because you seem like someone who dick rides horseshoe theory
@jlcrawf @malwaretech socialism isn't Naziism please don't make me explain this to you