@kaia @m0xee i don't think dividers are the problem

@kaia @hj
Yes, as always, this isn't a question of clear right or wrong, rather a set of questions and each of them should be addressed individually. Their concern seems quite genuine to me, addressing it with "Trust me, it just won't happen 😏" and labelling them as trans-hating to apply greater pressure, doesn't feel right.

@kaia @hj @m0xee

just make all public bathrooms all-gender. You will suddenly get pushback from people that pretend to be progressive though.

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee make them single locked stalls, they should not be communal full stop

@arcana @kaia @hj @m0xee that is the norm, you actually only ever see half height stalls in two places: where there are drug addicts shooting up, and where guys use the stall to give each other blowjobs. which makes the bathrooms unusable by ordinary people .

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee no I mean locked individual rooms with sinks inclusive. Like how disabled toilets are in the UK.

@sun @kaia @arcana @hj @m0xee
public us toilets always have big gap under, near always gap between door and wall you can see through, and near always are made for very short people (easy to see over) even if not "half-height

@ageha @kaia @arcana @hj @m0xee this is fixable

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee @ageha make them single rooms with locks and charge an entrance fee to reduce overcrowding as well as only allowing paying customers to use them

@sun @ageha @hj @kaia @m0xee I’d happily pay $5 to use the toilet if I needed it when I was out and about as long as it was a private room

@arcana @kaia @hj @m0xee @ageha culturally this doesn't fly in the USA, there was a big thing many years ago to eradicate pay toilets

@arcana @kaia @hj @m0xee @ageha I have no problem with private rooms but I am guessing you can pack less toilets into the space.

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee @ageha well yes, that’s correct, but privacy >>> convenience

People can afford to wait a few minutes for people to finish

@arcana @kaia @hj @m0xee @ageha I used to think it was silly but I thought more about it and sometimes things can get better, they don't have to stay the same.

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee @ageha I also think that people should just hold it if they can and go when they’re home. Using public toilets should be an absolute last resort.

@arcana @kaia @hj @sun @m0xee
many people cannot do that, for medical reasons
people in general should not do that, for medical reasons

@ageha @kaia @hj @sun @m0xee there were uncomfortable gaps in them and I hate the fact that the disabled toilets are inside the gendered toilets so you can’t even use them as a neutral private escape

In 25 minutes they would all be full of junkies.

@nicholas @kaia @arcana @hj @m0xee we cannot have nice things because america is a dump

We cannot have nice dumps because America is a thing

To be fair the sidewalk and business doorways are also toilets in blue cities.

@nicholas @kaia @hj @sun @m0xee that’s why you charge for them and/or have the staff provide the key to the door which you have to return

None of that works without strong property rights protections. If you can't beat vagrants and junkies ​off with a stick when they won't leave, then your bathroom key just becomes their new house key 🤷‍♀️

This is classic *tragedy of the commons* problem. The solution is known, we simply lack the will to act.

@nicholas @kaia @hj @sun @m0xee well yes, obviously property rights are extremely important

@arcana @kaia @hj @sun
That would also make waiting queues to these unified restrooms as long as they currently are to women's 😂
That's the downside of it that I see, but it might be big. On the one hand, making it one bigger room would probably help, on the other — lots of businesses like fast-food restaurants would use it as an excuse to make it even smaller to save space and use it for something else, so the queues might become even longer 😩

@m0xee @kaia @hj @sun okay, then people can queue, who cares

@arcana @kaia @hj @m0xee if you are a small business you can have two rooms. if you are a bigger business you can good stalls or fewer private rooms. if you are a stadium or an airport, people just have to accept less privacy. everything is a tradeoff, there is no way around it.

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee queues, higher prices to reduce usage, people being encouraged to go before they arrive at the airport or stadium. I’ve done my flying days where I arrive at an airport in one country at 4am, transfer over 3 hours in another, and then fly for 8 hours.

I pee once before I leave and pee when I finally arrive.

@sun @kaia @hj @m0xee Unisex bathrooms solved it? Americans love co-op pissing.

@0 @kaia @hj @sun @m0xee I for one do not miss trough urinals

@sun@shitposter.world @kaia@brotka.st @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one Really? That's what's happening in many places in the Netherlands now and nobody is really complaining about it.

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia I think the northern european countries are legitimately more "progressive" on things like this

@sun@shitposter.world @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one @kaia@brotka.st We want to change a quite insignificant thing about daily life and we kinda just do the thing and most people don't really have an opinion about it and don't create an entire culture war about it.

You guys are exporting your culture war through the internet though. Please stop doing it.

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia this is not a culture war thing, many people legitimately don't want mixed-sex bathrooms. unlike culture war issues they will fight this.l

@sun@shitposter.world @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one @kaia@brotka.st I think the culture war brainwashed people into not wanting gender neutral bathrooms.

You all literally have gender neutral bathrooms at home, there is no valid argument for bathroom separation other than insignificant pet peeves.

@sun @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee
bathroom thing is being intentionally played hard as possible to pull people into no-thoughts fighting...

thinking about here, wouldn't be comfortable in a bathroom with men, but also wouldn't be in a bathroom with terfs, and then have had other bad experiences with women, and then some men are ok actually, so it gets complicated very quickly XX

people just wanting "gender" to serve as a clear-and-easy differentiator for safe/notsafe, but trouble is gender neither being clear in itself nor correlating all that well in the end with safety...

@sun @SuperDicq @hj @kaia @m0xee
anyways yeh, there's honest concern to begin with, but culture-war campaign to make people not think with nuance about such and do inaccurate black-and-white thinking

@ageha @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee yeah I agree with that, I basically just mean that this one goes deeper than "mad because someone told me to"

@ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu @sun@shitposter.world @kaia@brotka.st @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one Nobody wants to share bathrooms with people they don't like.

But unfortunately We Live In A Society so you sometimes have to be inside the same room with someone you don't like. That's just life. Grow up.

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia @sun
it's not "don't like" but rather "afraid of because they can hurt me more easily while i am indisposed

@ageha @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee sex segregation works really really well for this, that is why it is a worldwide thing. it just doesn't work well for every single person, all of whom are entitled to use bathrooms too

@sun@shitposter.world @ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu @kaia@brotka.st @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one Race segregation also made people feel "safer", but I don't think anyone worth taking seriously is in favor of that in current year.

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia @ageha what a bullshit comparison. I am talking about actual safety not perceived safety.

@sun@shitposter.world @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one @kaia@brotka.st @ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu This is completely percieved.

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia @sun
when i travel across the city on public transport i am often physically accosted; that is not "perceived"

@sun @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha I mean both are related to actual safety if you're going based on statistics. It's just where you decide to draw your personal ick line.

@arcana @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha most violence is intraracial

@sun @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha Depends on the place I think

@arcana@fedi.layer02.net @sun@shitposter.world @kaia@brotka.st @hj@shigusegubu.club @m0xee@social.librem.one @ageha@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu Personally I think any sort of grouping in statistics by race, gender, sexuality, etc is inherently gonna lead to discrimination.

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia @arcana @sun
yes, it will; that's the trouble

@SuperDicq @arcana @hj @kaia @m0xee @sun
this is the essential problem at heart of all human knowledge, actually

everything known relies on a theoretical framework for its interpretation, and "knowledge" drawn from "inputs" can vary arbitrarily depending on what framework is in use. in some cases those frameworks have been largely settled for us by evolution (e.g. object permanence, 3d spacial mapping, colour gradients...) ensuring certain ways of interpreting are mostly shared across humans, but arbitrary layerings of theory can and are dropped onto that

and every framework is wrong, even the evolved one. at best they can render lossy world-approximations that are right n% of the time under certain constraints, and at worst they stray into uncorrelated territory

@SuperDicq @arcana @hj @kaia @m0xee @sun
in this case, in order to protect myself from being raped again, i need to form such a lossy framework that is often going to miscategorise people, but without which i would be in more danger. my own needs must be balanced against the needs of everyone else though, who all need to pee or else have medical or embarrassing social issues

@SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @kaia @ageha @arcana men are overwhelmingly the problem when it comes to violence.

@sun @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha First offense: give them the Byzantine treatment

@arcana @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha there are tons of things that need to be done to improve this but in the meantime people in this imperfect world still have to use bathrooms

@sun @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha Well that's why the best solution in the mean time is to have individual rooms and just have queues if necessary

@arcana @kaia @SuperDicq @hj @m0xee @ageha that is an in progress solution