@sun_eater dino is cool on linux but its kinda retarded and fetches THE ENTIRE CHAT HISTORY when you first add your account, and gives notifications for it all, atleast last i used it
gajim is popular, i havent had good luck but thats what everyone seems to use
i use psi+ because of autism its kinda fucky
also converse.js/inverse.chat

@sun_eater like conversejs is the project inverse.chat is the official instance

@maija @sun_eater Converse was such a piece of shit I had to fix a bug just to get it to run at all when I first tried it. It failed outright at startup. At least they accepted my PR to fix it.

@NEETzsche @sun_eater its worked well for me but also id say user experience is far more important than server. a server admin knows what they are doing. the user often does not. and its one of the few good xmpp clients out there. i would apply some custom css personally though, a few quality of life tweaks

@maija @sun_eater Maybe it got better since I used it. I submitted my pull request in September of 2021

@NEETzsche @maija probably, converse always worked fine for me

@sun_eater @maija My little one-liner brought it from not working at all on my XMPP instance to working, but being a clunky piece of shit.

My experience with federated chat services has been rather terrible. They all sucked. The UI/UX just can't compete with commercial, proprietary services like Discord or Telegram and I think it's because the people who built them thought exclusively about abstract back-end ideas and not at all about things like the user experience.

This is not a problem I've seen with other FOSS/federated services, like the one we're on now. It's specifically chat services that suck ass.

@NEETzsche @maija @sun_eater
agreed
as much as I dislike discord its still miles better than anything else
hell even fucking rocketchat is more stable than xmpp most times

@theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @dcc@annihilation.social

as much as I dislike discord its still miles better than anything else

Is this fella for real? ​​

@dushman @theorytoe @dcc @sun_eater @NEETzsche fosstard tbh
you know i mostly use xmpp dush, they're right, most the clients suck and compatibility is kinda ass. sure its usuable normally but its not intuitive and only like conversations and its forks are actually proper good, which is a mobile only client

@maija@comp.lain.la @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social
Gajim on desktop is great

@maija@comp.lain.la @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social
OMEMO and all works perfect on gajim. Eats like 200mb RAM so not that heavy too.

@dushman @theorytoe @dcc @sun_eater @NEETzsche > Eats like 200mb RAM so not that heavy too.
bro are you for real right now

@maija @theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @NEETzsche dushman be like i cant use systemd it uses 10mb of ram but an xmpp client written in python that uses more RAM than webshit is fine

@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @maija@comp.lain.la @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social
I mean do you have a better option lel?

@dushman @theorytoe @dcc @sun_eater @NEETzsche @maija psi+, pidgin, using an IRC to XMPP bridge (IRC clients are good unlike XMPP ones)

@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la
I've used psi+ but it doesn't have proper chat hist fetching. Gajim is smoother to use imo.

@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la
It sure is way less than discord or element lol

@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la
I can stomach 176mb of ram usage for an xmpp client that actually works well

@dushman >for an XMPP client that actually works well

I'm willing to challenge you to find me an XMPP client that actually works well. For it to qualify as "works well" it needs to require no more than twice as many clicks and no more than twice as many fields to fill in as it does to get started on Discord. We're going to go from fresh install of Windows 10 with no programs installed having no account to viewing cat video responding with minions meme.

If it doesn't just work as-described I'm going to get on a call with you and have you tell me exactly what to click on. You're going to have to think of this in terms of resource management, where if you try something but it doesn't fix the problem, you still used up clicks to try to troubleshoot it. It's going to be like a game of chess: "if I have to open up this menu, it'll take five clicks... Hmmm..."

Yes, all of those settings you have to change count toward this total. Yes, all of those other programs you need to install to get it to work count toward this total. I'm willing to give it twice as many clicks etc as Discord and I'm still damn sure XMPP won't make it.

This should be a lesson in how the normie thinks, and to be clear, to somebody who thinks a good time is having a barbecue or going fishing, this isn't an even close to wrong way to view the matter.

@theorytoe @meso @dcc @sun_eater @maija

@NEETzsche @theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @meso this is giving such leeway, but yes this is basic UX principles why does no fosstard get it! i used to talk to the dev of that one other crossplatform fedi client i forget the name, and he cared about ui/ux and it helped the project alot.
nobody else i've met doing free software has cared in the slightest about ui/ux unless their some gnome user often praising pretty arbitrary just as bad choices

@maija Gleason has cared because his target audience is a bunch of retarded TERF boomers from the United Kingdom. They, being British, have an IQ of around 80 on average from being drunk 24/7, which makes them great candidates for user testing.

@theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @meso

@NEETzsche @theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @meso thats true
i dont personally like the design of soapbox, that whole, what is it, category? genre? of webuis is something i dont really like, but it is pretty intuitive in my usage and definitely inline with other major social medias
tbf though mastodon and pleroma are pretty decent too, back in 2020 some normie friend wanted to check out what im doing and had no issue figuring out how to use pleroma

@maija Yeah, it's why I opened by pointing out that the UI issues don't apply to all free and open source software, just chat services for some reason. All FOSS chat services are trash due to their trash UI. Nobody gives a fuck how much RAM it uses as long as it isn't like a terabyte.

@theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @meso

@NEETzsche @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso exactly this
I dont think its just in a good place at the moment

it either needs to be improved heavily, or someone really needs to take a very critical lens when making a new service/protocol

@theorytoe Neither is going to happen because in the mind of anybody who designs these services, abstract shit like how well the e2ee works are really the only important things to them. You have to understand that the people who designed these things actually believe the CIA is hellbent on monitoring their friend chat group where the most illegal thing they do is sell weed to each other

@dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso

@NEETzsche@iddqd.social @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @maija@comp.lain.la @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @meso@the.asbestos.cafe
I just prefer not having my data sold to corporations. Most people don't unironically believe the feds are gangstalking them.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And I just don’t like FOSS niggers wasting my time having to futz with their Python spaghetti code just so I can tell them their other Python spaghetti code is broken. Which, yes, is what FOSS chat services amount to. I reiterate my challenge to see how many clicks it takes to go from new install of Windows 10 to posting/viewing cat memes, comparing it to Discord or Telegram.

@NEETzsche
> new install of Windows 10
Do normies even use desktop systems these days? A phone and an Android tablet or an iPad is what they have. Having a "computer" is already a geeky thing.

@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso

We can use a phone if you really like but I’m going to count every touch as a click instead. And I guarantee you, Discord/Telegram will still have less than half.

@NEETzsche
No, I get your point, it's just a side note, but it might make a difference as they can get Telegram and Discord in Microsoft store, but they won't find Element there. On a phone, installing Element and signing up for an account on matrix.org would take roughly the same amount of clicks/touches I think.
I'm not sure what it would be for XMPP. Skype, while commercial, is a mess in this regard — it asks a lot of questions.
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso

The inconvenience of installing the damn thing is part of the issue, though. The biggest compromise I can do is installing F-Droid before we begin. But that’s it. That’s all you’re getting.

The important thing to consider is that the inconvenience of setting this up is measurable and real, and there’s only so much coping one can do about it before the final answer is “no this is trash” to someone who isn’t invested ideologically in this.

@NEETzsche
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
It took longer than I had expected and yes, they do have e-mail verification now — and that was the longest part. Average user probably won't be using a VPN exit point for signing up and won't have to enter ReCAPTCHA, and will definitely not get prompted about using ntfy for notifications. "Help us improve…" — it's good that they even ask.
Overall — not bad at all.
Can anyone do Discord?

@NEETzsche
I don't think it's as bad as some try to paint it — I use Matrix for communicating with my non tech-savvy friends and family — all of them managed to signup without any help from me, including my mom and girls who prefer Instagram as their primary social media, none of them are bad with computers though.
My mom often complains that it takes a couple of seconds to decrypt bigger images — but that's what Telegram doesn't even have.
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso

So, here’s me getting into my Discord server. I did have to do a CAPTCHA and enter a birthdate, but notice how it dropped me directly into the server. I also didn’t have to install an app. It’s clear from your video that Element has seen a lot of improvement, which is to their credit.

@NEETzsche
Element has also seen a downgrade in fact. Like I said, when I've been signing up and it was still called Riot — there was no email verification, they probably just couldn't come up with better anti-spam measure. I think you can not have one on your server.And I've just checked — they do have invite links, I didn't even think of that as I've never used this function. And they even offer a selection of clients if you follow such a link
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso

@NEETzsche
I think they also have some embeddable thing — so, same temporary accounts. I'm just not sure it works for matrix.org
And they of course could've got rid of the terms of service and telemetry questions and do it like Discord does "By clicking okay you agree to this and that…" — but it's good that they didn't, I'd probably not trust them with such an "improvement". Overall it's perfectly balanced now, not night and day difference.
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso