gajim is popular, i havent had good luck but thats what everyone seems to use
i use psi+ because of autism its kinda fucky
also converse.js/inverse.chat
My experience with federated chat services has been rather terrible. They all sucked. The UI/UX just can't compete with commercial, proprietary services like Discord or Telegram and I think it's because the people who built them thought exclusively about abstract back-end ideas and not at all about things like the user experience.
This is not a problem I've seen with other FOSS/federated services, like the one we're on now. It's specifically chat services that suck ass.
agreed
as much as I dislike discord its still miles better than anything else
hell even fucking rocketchat is more stable than xmpp most times
@theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @dcc@annihilation.social
as much as I dislike discord its still miles better than anything else
Is this fella for real? 
you know i mostly use xmpp dush, they're right, most the clients suck and compatibility is kinda ass. sure its usuable normally but its not intuitive and only like conversations and its forks are actually proper good, which is a mobile only client
@maija@comp.lain.la @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social
OMEMO and all works perfect on gajim. Eats like 200mb RAM so not that heavy too.
bro are you for real right now
@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @maija@comp.lain.la @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social
I mean do you have a better option lel?
@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la
I've used psi+ but it doesn't have proper chat hist fetching. Gajim is smoother to use imo.
@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la
It sure is way less than discord or element lol
@meso@the.asbestos.cafe @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @NEETzsche@iddqd.social @maija@comp.lain.la
I can stomach 176mb of ram usage for an xmpp client that actually works well
I'm willing to challenge you to find me an XMPP client that actually works well. For it to qualify as "works well" it needs to require no more than twice as many clicks and no more than twice as many fields to fill in as it does to get started on Discord. We're going to go from fresh install of Windows 10 with no programs installed having no account to viewing cat video responding with minions meme.
If it doesn't just work as-described I'm going to get on a call with you and have you tell me exactly what to click on. You're going to have to think of this in terms of resource management, where if you try something but it doesn't fix the problem, you still used up clicks to try to troubleshoot it. It's going to be like a game of chess: "if I have to open up this menu, it'll take five clicks... Hmmm..."
Yes, all of those settings you have to change count toward this total. Yes, all of those other programs you need to install to get it to work count toward this total. I'm willing to give it twice as many clicks etc as Discord and I'm still damn sure XMPP won't make it.
This should be a lesson in how the normie thinks, and to be clear, to somebody who thinks a good time is having a barbecue or going fishing, this isn't an even close to wrong way to view the matter.
@theorytoe @meso @dcc @sun_eater @maija
nobody else i've met doing free software has cared in the slightest about ui/ux unless their some gnome user often praising pretty arbitrary just as bad choices
@theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @meso
i dont personally like the design of soapbox, that whole, what is it, category? genre? of webuis is something i dont really like, but it is pretty intuitive in my usage and definitely inline with other major social medias
tbf though mastodon and pleroma are pretty decent too, back in 2020 some normie friend wanted to check out what im doing and had no issue figuring out how to use pleroma
@theorytoe @dcc @dushman @sun_eater @meso
I dont think its just in a good place at the moment
it either needs to be improved heavily, or someone really needs to take a very critical lens when making a new service/protocol
@dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
@NEETzsche@iddqd.social @theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe @dcc@annihilation.social @maija@comp.lain.la @sun_eater@goreslut.xyz @meso@the.asbestos.cafe
I just prefer not having my data sold to corporations. Most people don't unironically believe the feds are gangstalking them.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And I just don’t like FOSS niggers wasting my time having to futz with their Python spaghetti code just so I can tell them their other Python spaghetti code is broken. Which, yes, is what FOSS chat services amount to. I reiterate my challenge to see how many clicks it takes to go from new install of Windows 10 to posting/viewing cat memes, comparing it to Discord or Telegram.
@NEETzsche
> new install of Windows 10
Do normies even use desktop systems these days? A phone and an Android tablet or an iPad is what they have. Having a "computer" is already a geeky thing.
We can use a phone if you really like but I’m going to count every touch as a click instead. And I guarantee you, Discord/Telegram will still have less than half.
@NEETzsche
No, I get your point, it's just a side note, but it might make a difference as they can get Telegram and Discord in Microsoft store, but they won't find Element there. On a phone, installing Element and signing up for an account on matrix.org would take roughly the same amount of clicks/touches I think.
I'm not sure what it would be for XMPP. Skype, while commercial, is a mess in this regard — it asks a lot of questions.
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
The inconvenience of installing the damn thing is part of the issue, though. The biggest compromise I can do is installing F-Droid before we begin. But that’s it. That’s all you’re getting.
The important thing to consider is that the inconvenience of setting this up is measurable and real, and there’s only so much coping one can do about it before the final answer is “no this is trash” to someone who isn’t invested ideologically in this.
@NEETzsche
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
It took longer than I had expected and yes, they do have e-mail verification now — and that was the longest part. Average user probably won't be using a VPN exit point for signing up and won't have to enter ReCAPTCHA, and will definitely not get prompted about using ntfy for notifications. "Help us improve…" — it's good that they even ask.
Overall — not bad at all.
Can anyone do Discord?
@NEETzsche
I don't think it's as bad as some try to paint it — I use Matrix for communicating with my non tech-savvy friends and family — all of them managed to signup without any help from me, including my mom and girls who prefer Instagram as their primary social media, none of them are bad with computers though.
My mom often complains that it takes a couple of seconds to decrypt bigger images — but that's what Telegram doesn't even have.
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
that was good onboarding.
Yes, I’d say this is a step backwards. There are other UI advantages to Discord, like most notably the “servers” (guilds) structure where one server has many channels and roles and blah blah blah. I play TTRPGs online and that’s a big boon.
its so dumb, its literally just a directory for matrix basically. and i think it might be element specific? but i forget
atleast the discord metaphor kinda makes sense comparing to irc. one server, with many channels, even if redefining server, but i suppose matrix is close in this regard, in a bad way, and still worse.
xmpp has a spec in the works for MIX instead of MUC which should allows similar but has the same design flaws as the matrix one and generally seems destined for faliure
its not hard to do even if its a hack! just group them in join/leave and users aswell
@NEETzsche
Element has also seen a downgrade in fact. Like I said, when I've been signing up and it was still called Riot — there was no email verification, they probably just couldn't come up with better anti-spam measure. I think you can not have one on your server.And I've just checked — they do have invite links, I didn't even think of that as I've never used this function. And they even offer a selection of clients if you follow such a link
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
@NEETzsche
I think they also have some embeddable thing — so, same temporary accounts. I'm just not sure it works for matrix.org
And they of course could've got rid of the terms of service and telemetry questions and do it like Discord does "By clicking okay you agree to this and that…" — but it's good that they didn't, I'd probably not trust them with such an "improvement". Overall it's perfectly balanced now, not night and day difference.
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
I’ve considered writing a federated Discord clone with the guilds structure and so on but it’s just such a time-consuming task. But at this point I think the thing that will save federated services is focusing on UI/UX, and Pleroma/forks have been doing great at that.
I think the next step here is rich presence, but for these chat services they still need a lot of work. They need to implement something to the effect of the guilds structure from Discord, they still need custom emoji reacts, and so on.
I am one of the opinion that putting federation into the chat service might be more of a hassle than its worth
especially for instant messaging
but I could be entirely wrong
I think they’re just doing it wrong
thats honestly what I think too
but it seems like people end up getting attached to the protocol too much and forget about the service itself
Let me elaborate on what I mean by that. Inside out is when you design the backend and work your way outward to the UI. Outside in is when you design the UI and then work your way into the back end. I think the mistake they made was leaning very heavily into the former. They really fleshed out the back end. But then they only implemented front ends that are sort of a proof of concept, and in the case of Element, they're now just starting to escape that problem.
Considering how events work in matrix, it's actually feasible to implement a Discord like system outright. Just create a new client that sends Events that are designed in that way. For example, if you frame a channel as a guild, just start issuing Events that specify which subchannel they're in. That sort of thing.
The more I think about this, the more I'm coming to the idea that we can salvage Matrix by just writing a new client that abandons this pretense of being compatible with any of the other clients, and we just make up a new Event structure that suits our needs more.
Let's sleep on that for a bit. This could be genius. This could be total retardation. Let's not jump to conclusions.
@dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @m0xee @meso
:marseythonk: interesting I see what you mean
I think the ui-first approach would definitely be a benefit overall. Though if it is federated I think the best approach is to keep the overall protocol as simple as possible and only implement the needs of the ui. With that it would be really eassy to make new backends/frontends/clients (assuming this is federated) and would lead to a hopefully richer environment of stuff to choose from.
@NEETzsche
Stickers are also horrible in Matrix — and I think there are two separate implementations: one that you can add to your room as an extension and your own personal ones. The latter are accessible in e.g. Fluffy chat and they are synced across devices so it's definitely not some client-specific thing, but I don't know of any way to post those in Element 🤷
@theorytoe @dcc @maija @dushman @sun_eater @meso
So, here’s me getting into my Discord server. I did have to do a CAPTCHA and enter a birthdate, but notice how it dropped me directly into the server. I also didn’t have to install an app. It’s clear from your video that Element has seen a lot of improvement, which is to their credit.