@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
So does it matter if CIA was involved?
Of course shit might ALWAYS go sideways — TP AJAX something-something. But did CIA want THIS outcome? Probably not — it became a total clusterfuck, no matter the angle you look at it. But this only proves once again that not everything goes according to their plan — they are also not always in control.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
The real questions is: if I'm someone who is willing to cooperate with CIA and I'm actually capable with their help of achieving success — who is using whom? And the second one: if someone so capable prefers to work with foreign government rather then pursuing public policy career in their own, is such a state/government even worth preserving?

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
Yes, but as individuals become leaders of movements, they get more ambitious and harder to keep on the leash. E.g. it was discovered that Lech Wałęsa had ties with domestic intelligence — if anyone is surprised, it's not me 🤷 In the end it was him who had the last laugh: it was him who fucked the system over and succeeded, not the other way around as it usually happens, so who am I to judge?

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
And when it's foreign intelligence, it's even less control and I'm pretty sure that a lot of the money they are pouring into it might be yielding no return at all and goes into drugs and cheap booze for "very perspective" young political activists, journalists, some — probably into more expensive booze for professors of who-the-fuck-knows-what from a plethora of high-brow think tanks 😂

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
When it comes to CIA involvement, on one hand I understand where this is coming from, it's American guilty conscience speaking: "It was us who ruined their country!", on the other — it denies people in other countries their free will. It's like you said — not direct mind control, more like favouring one party over the other, but if tipping the balance of scales can result in collapse, this means that society is already in an unhealthy state.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
Were any of these countries that are often attributed to be "ruined by CIA" ever prosperous? There are particularly funny cases, such as Iraq. I've been rewatching Vice recently — not a bad movie of course, very entertaining and well-made, but it's implied throughout the movie: "They did it for the oil!" Now let's take a look into who is mining oil in Iraq: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq#Service_contracts_licensing_results

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
OMG, European companies are there too, but it's not only them: China, Turkey — those who can't be suspected to be US' lapdog; but there is more — Russia, one of the most vocal critics!
I mean — yep, US involvement didn't bring any good, that is for sure. Debatably, that was a dirty political game and some Americans are willing to take the blame, but if they indeed "did it for the oil", apparently, they did a rather shitty job.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
I can keep going about these things forever, but my position is: their intent might be evil, and it's indeed might be there, they might be even imagining themselves as puppeteers running the whole world, but real efficiency of this foreign influence thing is hard to measure and overall questionable.
Besides, we have our case in point — Iran.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
It wasn't heaven on earth, so-called Middle East was never land of the free — but considering the region and time, it was a rather liberal country — mostly secular. And it turned into a theocratic hell hole. I don't have anything against religion when it's people's personal beliefs and even against organised religion to a degree, but not when it becomes an aide for some group to stay in power indefinitely.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
And it's not some conspiracy, it's all public, and everyone — including those in CIA, have this example right in front of them. What happens when you sow chaos for the sake of sowing chaos, hoping that you would be somehow able to take control over it later. So they have to think twice about it.

@Hyolobrika @kravietz @feld @thatguyoverthere
Fair point, but the share of all US companies is not an order of magnitude greater than the combined share of Russian oil producers, IIRC it's not even two times greater — the numbers are comparable. And yet "Powell shaking the vial at UN" is a major propaganda talking point here. So it would be like you've robbed some guy, and me being like: "Okay, I'll take my share of course, but you're such a bastard for robbing that poor fella!"😏

@Hyolobrika @kravietz @feld @thatguyoverthere
If they indeed "did it for the oil" — it would be wise to "protect the investments" and make sure others can't join the party, at least not on this scale. Of course we can delve further into conspiracy and suspect that letting Russian companies in was in fact according to the plan — to whitewash the US foreign influence operation. But if that is the case — US intelligence community is hands down too competent.

@Hyolobrika @kravietz @feld @thatguyoverthere
Resistance is futile — if it were KGB/GRU, they would've fucked up at least twice on every stage of the operation.
More likely scenario IMO is that however bad it is, this operation was part genuine concern of the situation in the region, part dirty political games (i.e. certain people acting for their own political gain, not as state actor) and part incompetence — bad intel, etc-etc.

@Hyolobrika @kravietz @feld @thatguyoverthere
If oil was involved in the decision making it wasn't the primary motivation. But when it was done — oil production companies just started filling the void, companies from all around the world, including countries that never approved of the whole thing — just not to be "too late to the party", so did the US companies — not because they were *enabled* to act.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld

Finding Ministry CD brought this thread back in memory.

I mean yeah, I'm pretty sure it had very bad effects domestically, but me simply agreeing with you on this would be a hypocrisy — I'm not a US citizen so it's hard for me to assess the extent of it. My point is that "US did it for the oil" — is a gross oversimplification, and it does neither party justice.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
It's not some uncontrollable process, not some natural occurrence "US always does it" — these decisions have people behind them, these people have names, the movie explores this topic really well by the way. And these people can be held responsible.
But it's not like on the other end there are noble barbarians living in mud huts, having the time of their lives, but then US came and ruined the idyllic livelihoods — no, far from it!

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
There very often are equal assholes in power, they don't have the resources of US, but they also aren't subject to international scrutiny, and the freedom of press isn't even remotely close to that of the US. People hate their own governments — and very often rightfully so! No surprise that some would rather have US involved than die in the darkness or authoritarian regime fighting all that shit alone.

@thatguyoverthere @kravietz @feld
Or worse: until some undemocratic regime has fallen out of favour, US might be even assisting the local motherfucker in charge.