@buoyantair
Have you even been on Gab? Most of the people there are harmless boomer conservatives. There are a small number of alt-right people but they're a drop in the bucket.
@isolategab

@terryenglish @isolategab

But that one drop of nazis was good enough to push germany into fascism and whole world into chaos.

@buoyantair
If you want to block neo-nazis that's perfectly okay. I don't think it's fair though for you to tar all of Gab with such a broad brush.
@isolategab

@terryenglish I dont want to block other gab instances, I want to block gab.com which has mainly a ton of fascists

@buoyantair
Why don't you just admit that what you're really concerned about is ideological purity? If you want to create an echo chamber and damage the #Fediverse overall do what you want, but don't expect me to buy your flimsy justifications. I've been on Gab. I know what kind of users are there. Most of them are completely harmless rubes. Again if you want to block someone like James Allsup I completely understand but you're average Gabber is just a conservatard with a persecution complex.

@terryenglish Whats there to admit in this? Everyone already knows I'm an antifascist 🤣

@buoyantair
Are you sure about that? Maybe you should check again.

@buoyantair
It's so frustrating to see all the progress made in the last 50 years being rolled back by useful idiots larping as "anti-fascists".

@terryenglish Oh right what 50 years of progress? Let me guess... fascisim?

@buoyantair
Your ignorance is dangerous and I am undaunted by your smears. I guess the civil rights movement was a bunch of fascists?

@terryenglish MILKSHAKE TIME. You must be a fascist 😋

@buoyantair
I love milkshakes 😋

@terryenglish @buoyantair
The ones you drink or the ones you put cement into to throw at people whose words you don't like?

@nerdman
It's all about ego with these people. They think that being against fascism (whatever that means) is a brave and controversial stance to take in 2019. It's so absurd. Virtue signalling, ego stroking, and shaming/shunning anyone who isn't interested in that absurdity. It's not even about politics really. That's how someone as left wing as me can get smeared as a fascist.
@buoyantair

@terryenglish @buoyantair
But of course it's brave! It's not like there was a VAST war that pit fascism against communism and democracy, where 10s of millions died in the fight.

@nerdman
I know. These terms are so antiquated. All the paradigms are different now. When you use the term fascist you just sound like someone who has no clue about current year politics.
@buoyantair

@terryenglish @buoyantair
Yeah. It's like the words "retard" or "idiot". Both were clinical terms back in the day. Today when you call someone a retard you're just insulting them, not taking into account developmental studies. When someone calls someone else a nazi they're just insulting them, not saying that they're literal german national socialists.

@nerdman
I should cut this girl a break though. She's only 19 and at least she was willing to have a conversation even if it was just to insult. That's more than I can say about a lot of the SJW-leaning #Fediverse.
@buoyantair

@terryenglish
Yeah because Malcolmx wanted violence and mlk was a cuck
@buoyantair

@terryenglish @buoyantair You can thank the people who glow in the dark for it.

@maxmustermann lmao

@buoyantair
serious discussions.webm

@buoyantair @terryenglish It doesn't have a ton of anything. It has ~6k active users, most of which are bots.

@p Well the bots are spewing fascist ideologies :)

@buoyantair They're news bots mirroring small boomer blogs.

@p doesnt matter

@buoyantair It does matter, it's central to the issue. If the software isn't somehow inherently fascist and the posts aren't fascist, there's literally nothing to worry about.

@p Yes there's nothing to worry about, but, if the tool is being used to push for fascist agenda? What if the authors use the tool to target vulnerable populations?

@buoyantair Such a thing is not possible or likely.

@p Lmao, ever heard of "facebook"

@buoyantair I just covered the difference between fedi and Facebook. It could not be done more effectively regardless of software.

@buoyantair
Well the Russians killed more then the Nazis did and it was their own people like I don't see leftist be like omfg communist.
@terryenglish @isolategab

@buoyantair @isolategab @terryenglish
Like what I think people should do is instance block these radical left instances too or that both instances should be freely talk to each other but then again I guess I'm one of those Nazis the kids call yet I'm a libertarian.

@1iceloops123
It should be up to individual users to determine what they want to see and what they don't want to. Instance blocks should only be used on rare occasions for spam etc.
@buoyantair @isolategab

@terryenglish uhhhaaa tell that to your fascist overlords at gab

@terryenglish @isolategab The argument here is that we are trying to block "gab.com" and it's affiliates. It's okay if someone uses the gab software for more sane things but generally you wouldn't want to keep your trust on software run by fascists and capitalists, unless you are one of them.

@terryenglish @buoyantair @isolategab yes, I have faced more hatred from Mastodon cancel culture block gangs, than I have from the gab boys,

@static Cancer is everywhere on almsot every instance but if the creators of the instance are themselves cancer?!

@buoyantair @terryenglish @isolategab You probably use plenty of software made by fascists without even knowing it, tbf.

@umbr3lla Maybe, but being aware of it and making conscious decisions to move away from such software and ecosystems is what matters the most.

@buoyantair The point being : a technology isn't defined by the people who made it. If that was the case, you would be back to stone age.

@umbr3lla That's where you are going wrong. Your work defines everything about you.

@buoyantair That's not what I said.

@buoyantair @umbr3lla

tools 👏 are 👏 not 👏 moral 👏 agents 👏

that said, gab's code is a literal dumpster fire, so i wouldn't use it anyway, but *who* made the tool has no bearing on the tool's utility.

@xj9 But if I am creating a tool, I am likely to create it according to my interests and needs therefore I inculcate my political believes in my tools right?

@buoyantair sure, but the tool can't do anything without somebody operating it. the *operator* is therefore responsible for what they do with that tool, not the creator.

@buoyantair @xj9 No. You are simply making a Tool. You are in Social Justice Prelest. Go join a real religion!

@maxmustermann I call bullshit :)

@buoyantair I know you don't want to discuss anything. so...

Prelest (Russian: прелесть, from Russian: лесть - cajolery; (charm, seduction), Greek: πλάνη - plani), also known as: spiritual delusion, spiritual deception, delusion, illusion, – according to Holy Fathers of Eastern Orthodox Church, a false spiritual state, a spiritual illness, "a wounding of human nature by falsehood" - a man's assimilation of falsehood as truth (St. Ignatius Brianchaninov).[1] The concept of prelest should not be confused with somatic mental illness of any kind, prelest is rather a spiritual illness[2] - an illness of the soul in its personal relation to God, an illness that is to be cured by humility and Holy Sacraments and under the guidance of the spiritual father. In the broadest sense, everyone is in prelest: everyone has some wrong thoughts and views, everyone does not fully understand the meaning of life, the degree of own sinfulness etc. When the word "prelest" is used in the narrow sense, i.e. that some particular person is in the state of prelest, that usually means that this person, initially being on the path of pious christian life, became possessed with the strongest pride and self-conceit right up to the thought about personal sanctity. To consider oneself a saint - that is a clear prelest because the closer a man is to God, the more he sees his imperfection, and all true saints considered themselves in the feeling of the heart the greatest sinners. The state opposite to prelest is spiritual sobriety. This article is dedicated to different manifestations of prelest mostly in the "narrow" sense.

@buoyantair General information:
Strictly speaking, any human error i.e. any acceptance of a false thought as truth can be the beginning of prelest: "The source of self-delusion and demonic deception is the false thought" (St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov)). But Holy Fathers, speaking about prelest, considered not any errors but wrote mainly about the errors in the human judgement about spiritual matters and especially about the errors in understanding of the personal spiritual state.

True view of oneself (of own spiritual condition, position relative to God, sinfulness etc.) is tightly connected with the passions of pride and vainglory and is distorted by these passions. The degree of prelest is the degree of such distortion, i.e. the amount of falsehood in the view of oneself and the degree of difficulty of change from the false view to the true one.

Different kinds of prelest are described by many Holy Fathers, including the Fathers of Philokalia: St. Gregory of Sinai, St. Maximus the Confessor, St. Symeon the Metaphrast, St. Symeon the New Theologian and others. Even when some Holy Father does not use the term "prelest" explicitly, writing about ascetic life implies writing what spiritual practice is true, i.e. leads to salvation, and what is false, i.e. leads to the opposite and, therefore, accepting it as true is prelest.

A modern reader can find the most thorough explanation of prelest in the writings of St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) where he relentlessly keeps the traditions of Holy Fathers. Some of these writings were incorporated into a book "On prelest"[3] dedicated solely to different forms of delusion (wrong way of prayer, trust to dreams, excessive zeal, false humility etc.), which St. Ignatius explains on the basis of the words from Holy Fathers of the first centuries and provides information about different recent cases of delusion.

Some modern ascetics such as elder Joseph the Hesychast,[4] elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain,[5] elder Daniel Katounakiotis[6] also wrote about prelest.

The concept of prelest is very important in Orthodox spirituality and ascetics. It is one of the main dangers for a Christian (especially monastic) starting to pray with the Jesus Prayer.[7]

Identifying prelest in its particular manifestations is called discernment (or discrimination) of spirits. The virtue of discrimination "is greater than any other virtue; and is the queen and crown of all the virtues".[8] It corresponds to a very high degree of spiritual age and requires "three renunciations" (Evagrius[9], St. John Cassian[10], St. John Climacus[11]): separation from the world, inner fight with passions, acquisition of prayer and deep spiritual knowledge. True discrimination comes after a long previous experience of fighting with passions. The source of discrimination is in the action of Divine grace and the virtue of humility.

Professor N.E. Pestov in his book[12] writes that in general, the safest spiritual path in relation to prelest is to live in obedience to an experienced and holy elder, or at least to live on the advice of others. The fastest way to fall into prelest is the opposite - to trust own thoughts and not to listen to any advice.

@buoyantair General prelest and prelest proper:
According to Saint Ignatius Brianchaninov, "Spiritual deception is the state of all men without exception, and it has been made possible by the fall of our original parents. All of us are subject to spiritual deception. Awareness of this fact is the greatest protection against it. Likewise, the greatest spiritual deception of all is to consider oneself free from it".[1]

Theophan, the Archbishop of Poltava, comments on this statement of St. Ignatius briefly by setting apart "general prelest" and prelest in its "proper sense" of the word. On the bases of all the above mentioned he gives the following definition: "Briefly, the difference between 'general prelest' and prelest in the particular sense of the word can, on the basis of the above, be expressed thus. General prelest is forgetting and not noticing one's sinfulness. That which we call prelest proper is attributing to oneself righteousness when it does not actually exist. If a man thinks he is righteous, then his righteousness is not divine, but diabolical, foreign to the grace of God and to humility. One should recall the famous saying of Abba Poemen the Great: 'I prefer a man who sins and repents to one who does not sin and does not repent. The first has good thoughts, for he admits that he is sinful. But the second has false, soul-destroying thoughts, for he imagines himself to be righteous' (Bp. Ignatius, Patericon, 75)".[13]

@buoyantair The most likely time to fall into prelest:
Elder John Krestiankin in his word about spiritual guiding says that the most dangerous time in relation to prelest is the beginning of the spiritual life. "Upon entering the Church, winged with new sensations, the newly-born reaches with his consciousness straight for the Kingdom of Heaven, to the heights of mysteries that are hidden behind the impene­trable curtain of Divine revelation. At that moment the spiritual father and his spiritual child enter into a unified struggle with the dark powers, the latter of which are ready with their deceit to turn the new convert from the path of salvation. The enemy's deception will hunt after this person for the rest of his life, offering him its dangerous sweetness. This initial period is particularly dangerous, for this sweetness still resonates with the nature of the fleshly man, and finds ­sympathy and response deep within his soul. The spiritual father's strength in this struggle lies in prayer and love for his spiritual child's soul, which has come to desire its own salvation. The spiritual child's protection lies in his trust of the pastor, in the awareness of his own sinfulness, and mistrust of himself".[14]

St. Gregory of Sinai also writes that "around beginners and those who rely on their own counsel the demons spread the nets of destructive thoughts and images, and open pits into which such people fall; for their city is still in the hands of the workers of iniquity, and in their impetuosity they are easily slain by them. It is not surprising that they are deceived, or lose their wits, or have been and still are deluded, or heed what is contrary to truth, or from inexperience and ignorance say things that should not be said. Often some witless person will speak about truth and will hold forth at length without being aware of what he is saying or in a position to give a correct account of things. In this way he troubles many who hear him and by his inept behavior he brings abuse and ridicule on the heads of hesychasts. It is not in the least strange that beginners should be deceived even after making great efforts, for this has happened to many who have sought God, both now and in the past".[15]

@buoyantair Premature desire of impossible virtues:

Cool! I found your symptom!


St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) writes that there is a spiritual law of interrelationship of virtues so that one certain virtue cannot be acquired without acquiring another that is in close relationship with the first one. For a spiritually inexperienced person, the very idea that some virtue can be premature seems almost blasphemous[16], but this is true according to Holy Fathers. St. Isaac of Syria writes that "It is the good will of the most wise Lord that we reap our spiritual bread in the sweat of our brow. He established this law not out of spite, but rather so that we would not suffer from indigestion and die. Every virtue is the mother of the one following it. If you leave the mother who gives birth to the virtue and seek after her daughter, without having first acquired the mother, then these virtues become as vipers in the soul. If you do not turn them away, you will soon die".[17] St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) writes that "the fallen angel strives to deceive monks and draw them to destruction, offering them not only sin in its various forms, but also lofty virtues that are not natural to them". St. John Climacus writes that "the devil proposes impossible virtues to those who live under obedience, and unsuitable ideas to those living in solitude. <...>The enemy persuades them to look too soon for these virtues, so that they may not persevere and attain them in due time."[18]

St. Ignatius warns that the books of Holy Fathers can act on novices so much that they, in inexperience and ignorance, easily dare to leave the place of residence, which has all the convenience for personal salvation by means of execution of evangelical commandments, and to seek for another higher way of life, seductively painted in their imagination.[19] Such desires are the basis of many forms of prelest: desire of visions, revelations, and other supernatural gifts, execution of very long prayer rule, extreme fasting, premature desire of stillness and seclusion.

@buoyantair

@buoyantair
Expectation of grace:

The very thought about forthcoming grace and receiving Divine gifts, expectation of grace is a clear manifestation of pride. St. Ignatius writes: "If there is an expectation of grace within you – beware, you are in a dangerous state! <...> Prelest exists already in self-conceit, in considering oneself worthy, in the very expectation of grace."[20]

The Gospel says: "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation" (Luke 17:20). According to St. Isaac of Syria[21] and St. Macarius of Optina[22], these words mean that the ones who prematurely desired to acquire grace, acquired pride and fall. And this is not a sign that a man loves God but a mental illness. Saints who acquired grace, thought that they did not have it, and this humility kept them safe from the fall. St. Isaac adds: "How can we strive for high Divine gifts while Apostle Paul glories in tribulations." The same idea is expressed by St. Nectarios of Aegina: "The ones who seek the Divine gifts and insights while being immersed in the passions are in proud and foolish delusion. First, one need to work on cleansing oneself. Grace is sent as a gift to those who are cleansed from the passions. And they get it quietly, at the moment that they do not notice."[23]

St. Ambrose of Optina provides in one letter an example of such expectation of Divine gifts. A nun thought that she will receive all spiritual gifts at the day of the feast of Archangel Michael. But on that day, she instead received depression and thoughts of suicide from the demons. St. Ambrose writes that it was a delusion and that living in complete solitude will be dangerous for her because of such demonic attacks.[24]

Schema-archimandrite Abraham (Reidman) reminisces about his youth, when he did not pray with the Jesus Prayer, did not know any experienced elders, and did not read the books of the Holy Fathers. He read for the first time the conversation of St. Seraphim of Sarov with Motovilov[25], but understood it in a primitive way and began to pray about acquisition of grace. As a result, he began to see visions from demons. Fortunately, later he came to his senses and realized that he was in delusion.[26]

@buoyantair

Prelest in the New Testament:

In the scene of temptation in the desert, the Devil tries to delude Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 4:1–11).

In the Sermon on the Mount, Lord Jesus Christ says about false miracles (Matthew 7:21–23).

Also Lord Jesus says about prelest and false prophets (Matthew 24:4–5, Matthew 24:11).

In Acts 16:16–18, Apostle Paul expels the spirit of false prophecy.

In 1 John 4:1, Apostle John writes about false prophets and trust to spirits.

In 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, Apostle Paul writes about false visions.

In 1 Timothy 2:14, Apostle Paul mentions the deception of Adam and Eve.

In 1 Timothy 6:20, Apostle Paul advises to avoid delusion - "oppositions of science falsely so called".[27]

@buoyantair Kinds:

Saint Ignatius (Brianchaninov) writes there are many kinds of prelest. Each kind corresponds to the particular passion, from which it resulted, and each kind is somehow associated with pride. All kinds of prelest are also associated with improper prayer and occur when repentance is not the basis of the prayer. St. Ignatius notes that in terms of prayer, there are two distinct kinds of prelest:

1) agination – the person imagines in himself or outside something that does not exist. Such wrong kind of prayer (with imagination of Heaven, Lord Jesus Christ, Angels, Saints), when it is used by someone who did not reach dispassion, results in hallucinations mixed with real visions on the same subject originating from the demons.

2) self-conceit (pride, arrogance) – the person attributes to himself dignity before God that he does not have. Self-conceit in relation to prayer can manifest itself in false attribution of natural feelings during the prayer to the action of Divine grace.

St. Ignatius says that the first kind of prelest results from the wrong action of the mind and the second - from the wrong action of the heart.

Saint Gregory of Sinai also says about several forms of delusion:[28]

1) illusory visions and mental images and fantasies, caused by arrogance and self-conceit: "arrogance is followed by delusion, delusion by blasphemy, blasphemy by fear, fear by terror, and terror by a derangement of the natural state of the mind".

2) diabolic influence - "it has its origin in self-indulgence, which in its turn results from so-called natural desire. Self-indulgence begets licentiousness in all its forms of indescribable impurity." This form includes visions and gift of prophecy that some people have, in fact originating from the demons of licentiousness.

3) mental derangement - a result of the first two forms.

False visions:

According to the Holy Fathers, false visions are associated with pride. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov says that those people, who want to see visions, and whose mind is not renewed and recreated by the Holy Spirit, are filled with pride[29] - that means, as writes St. Ignatius, that there is a connection between prelest of the first and the second kind (i.e. between "imagination" and "conceit"). Archimandrite Seraphim (Alexiev) says: "Where there is pride and at the same time one has a vision - it can not be from God, but by all means - from the evil one."[30]

Romanian elder Cleopa (Ilie) specifies 7 ways of falling into delusion of false visions and dreams:[31]

1. Pride;
2. Vainglory;
3. Weak and inexperienced mind;
4. Reckless zeal;
5. Disobedience;
6. Following own will and concealment of thoughts in confession;
7. Not knowing self and the Divine Scriptures.

Elder Cleopa also provides examples of different saints from the Patericon who rejected the visions because they considered themselves unworthy to see it and due to the danger of delusion. He also quotes arguments of different Holy Fathers saying that one should not easily accept visions even if they have all attributes of true ones - if the saints were fast to accept visions they would be deluded and would not have become saints.

Elder Joseph the Hesychast says, mentioning the examples from his life, that true visions are always preceded or followed by very intense suffering and sorrows and are given by God only as a consolation.[32] Even if the vision is true, it is very difficult to withstand the fight with thoughts and not to get proud of the fact of the vision. Elder Joseph writes about pride after visions: "What happens after that? A person becomes the mock of the demons. They fool him with writings and visions, with dreams and revelations, with symbols and numbers, with oracles and a heap of superstitions."[4]

Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain tells such story about a woman who had one true vision. Then the Devil suggested her a thought that she was chosen by God and she believed it. Then the demons started to torment her with different visions and revelations. In the end, she had another true vision and was told to write to elder Paisios so that he could help her.[5] So elder Paisios says that out of all her visions, only 2 were from God.