Old Fucking Punk @lwriemen@librem.one

@gaeel

I don't know what the numbers are, but it really feels like, in the status quo situation in places like the U.S., more than half of the jobs are neutral at best. "No one should have to work" might not be the perfect vision of eutopia, but it creates space for the imagination. If you tell people who work to live, and whose paid labor harms the health and wellbeing of other people, that they have a duty to contribute, the likely outcome is for them to say "I'm barely making it as is, how am I supposed to make time to do something positive." But if you say "I don't think you should have to work" that opens up the question of "what would you do if you weren't required to work?"

I think that's a useful question to consider.

@gaeel

On the core points, I think we are in agreement, but I'm not sure I agree with you on rhetoric. I'm not particularly concerned with adherents to the Puritan work ethic model being disturbed by, or dismissive of, the phrase "no one should have to work." To whatever extent that the statement is provocative, I think there is also value in it. I think it does people good to have their core values directly challenged from time to time.

What I'd *really* like for them to think about, though, is the fact that a lot of the labor that they value so highly is actively destructive. It's well and good to say "all people capable of positive labor should do so" but maybe it'd also be super valuable to put some energy into getting people whose labor is actively harmful to *stop*.

@dazinism And, if you are a member of Social.Coop,, you can use Meet.Coop for free! ;-)

@anarchist_environmentalist My advice to you, and to myself, is to find joy wherever you can. You can find joy in the destruction of the infrastructure of ecocide or by working to make your community as resilient to the crisis and as non-reliant on industry, capital, and the state as possible. We can find joy by simply spending time in local ecosystems or with friends and family. (3/3)

"No one should have to work" is a fine sentiment that I have often agreed with, but I'm not sure I really stand by it anymore. I think it only makes sense for a certain definition of "work" and "have to"—the one where to survive you have to find a paying job, and things like "being a parent" don't count.

How about this, instead? "Everyone has a moral obligation to perform what labor they can for their community."

Maybe that labor is physical, emotional, spiritual, artistic, cerebral... but whatever it is, there's an awful lot of work to be done in this world.

Any recommended reading on why putting productivity growth into spare time instead of consumption is a good idea?

Also, if we would do this (which seems like a very good idea!) how could we better enable people to use their spare time in better ways? Free outdoors gyms, more libraries, etc.

@gaeel @varx

For me, part of the mindset of "no one should have to work" is the assumption that if no one was forced to work, it would turn out that most people actually would do various kinds of labor anyway. How does this interact with what the two of you are saying?

@varx There's the Marxist slogan "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs", which I think is very important (regardless of one's view of Marx and his ideas).
I feel it works even better in an anarchist context, because of how anarchism is against unjust and forced hierarchies.

For a society to work, everyone needs to have their needs met, but also everyone need to contribute what they can. The main point is that this duty needn't be enforced by threat of homelessness and hunger.

For my part I don't believe "no one should have to work", but I certainly believe "no one should be forced to work for the benefit of privileged"

"Meet.coop uses open source software & runs on co-op owned hardware powered by renewable energy. It currently has 105 members including brands such as Friends of the Earth International & The Tor Project
Meet.coop joined the Open Credit Network, offering its services in exchange for mutual credit. Any UK business that signs up to the Open Credit Network can now subscribe to Meet.coop and pay in credits, instead of flat currency"

https://www.thenews.coop/154366/topic/technology/democracy-youre-on-mute-a-co-op-alternative-to-zoom/

@yogthos

Mongabay put together an interesting database of reforestation projects that meet diverse goals (https://news.mongabay.com/2021/05/how-to-pick-a-tree-planting-project-mongabay-launches-transparency-tool-to-help-potential-supporters-decide/), but unfortunately it's intended to help donors decide where to put their money, so it doesn't provide comparison metrics for big government planting projects like China's, so it doesn't do a lot to put that work into context. It does show, however, that when evaluated along multiple success metrics, there's real variation in the quality of reforestion program.

@yogthos

I think the interesting question is where the other 3/4 of new forests are, and what kinds of policies have produced them. In most cases, the recommended way of increasing forest area is by leaving things alone and letting ecosystems recover naturally. That is happening in some places. Other places are working on intentionally replanting diverse native species on degraded land (e.g. the Green Wall project in Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)).

Chatcontrol: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communications –
https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chatcontrol-european-parliament-approves-mass-surveillance-of-private-communications/
#chatcontrol

@karrot @Matt_Noyes @neil @dazinism @kawaiipunk @ntnsndr @mariha @bhaugen

Reminder: This is happening later today:

⏲️ 9am West Coast USA
⏲️ 12pm East Coast USA
⏲️ 5pm London
⏲️ 18:00 Central Europe

☎️ call link --> https://socialcoop.meet.coop/nic-djg-e4q-au5

(or in info a fresh toot I made today https://social.coop/@nicksellen/106533727462024051)