I'm giving a side eye to all the posters wanting to "save democracy", since Trump won the popular vote.
I think the question on our minds is whether, having gotten here, the popular vote will even still matter in the next election cycle, or the one after. Which is to say, it is in fact a fair question. If he's able to take away meaningful elections, we wouldn't be the first country in which an elected leader had done such a thing.
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@dynamic I've a young colleague who believes that if Trump starts violating the Constitution, that we are all already trained to accept that without a fight. I don't think he has that much support. I've also seen commentary that the rich wouldn't support that. If he fails to put money in the pockets of the working class, his support will evaporate. I think we are facing another Great Depression rather than fascism, but who knows where that will lead.
@Old Fucking Punk All of that seems to be a different question than whether it is possible someone can win the democratic vote and still destroy democracy, to which I think the answer is a clear yes, as demonstrated by the fact that lots of current and historical dictators were democratically elected.
@Old Fucking Punk Of course we will fight. Fighting is not optional.
And also, there is a lot of inertia in the U.S. system, which is both beneficial (it resists totalitarian takeover) and harmful (when things move to the right---including through antidemocratic process---there can be a ratcheting effect, as we've seen with the federal courts). It's also useful to keep in mind that our system of government was never intended to be democratic.
I don't think economic collapse is a reliable escape valve. Desperation makes people hungry for people to blame and more susceptible to propaganda that scapegoats others. And it's been noted that the current state of the U.S. economy is a walk in the park compared to Germany in the 1920s.
And also, there is a lot of inertia in the U.S. system, which is both beneficial (it resists totalitarian takeover) and harmful (when things move to the right---including through antidemocratic process---there can be a ratcheting effect, as we've seen with the federal courts). It's also useful to keep in mind that our system of government was never intended to be democratic.
I don't think economic collapse is a reliable escape valve. Desperation makes people hungry for people to blame and more susceptible to propaganda that scapegoats others. And it's been noted that the current state of the U.S. economy is a walk in the park compared to Germany in the 1920s.
@dynamic_hubzilla @Old Fucking Punk
Side point, but something to watch for because conversations can be harder when people use words in different ways: I slightly tripped over this statement: "I think we are facing another Great Depression rather than fascism, but who knows where that will lead," because my first thought was "what are you talking about? fascism is already here." I don't think the idea that Trump is (and has been) a fascist is particularly controversial.
I'm guessing that your intention was to say that you don't think we'll end up with a totalitarian system of government, but it took me a moment of processing an reprocessing to realize that that might be the case.
Side point, but something to watch for because conversations can be harder when people use words in different ways: I slightly tripped over this statement: "I think we are facing another Great Depression rather than fascism, but who knows where that will lead," because my first thought was "what are you talking about? fascism is already here." I don't think the idea that Trump is (and has been) a fascist is particularly controversial.
I'm guessing that your intention was to say that you don't think we'll end up with a totalitarian system of government, but it took me a moment of processing an reprocessing to realize that that might be the case.
