@dos @mebbie people are tied to Android for many reasons, in many ways, and often they might not have choice in the matter.

Saying "I don't care, I already got my Librem One, and others can just buy it as well" or whatever is pretty damn un-excellent.

@rysiek @mebbie You're attributing things to me that I've never said. That's pretty damn un-excellent.

Would I prefer it to be an open platform? Of course I would, but it never really was, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion right now. It was made to make this possible. We can't rely on Google keeping it "open enough" and we can't rely on the society not making it mandatory to use without active resistance, which includes (but isn't limited to) moving away from Android whenever possible.

@rysiek @mebbie I believe that some people who are capable of moving away from Android haven't done so yet, for whatever reason. Sometimes they may be capable, but unwilling to give some convenience away - and using Android in a society that expects you to use it is surely more convenient. It's up to them to take action to make things better, not "manufacturers".

There are also many people who aren't, but you can't expect those to move yet. Obviously. We still need to pave them the way there.

@rysiek when I talk to the average person about these issues they simply don’t care, it’s a matter of convenience and user habit.

When people go to get a new phone it is very likely going to be the updated model of the same phone they have been buying for 10 years or more now.

Until they feel a reason to change and it is made convenient for them nothing will change; the enshitification hasn’t scared them away yet.

@R3dactd what are you trying to convince me of? That everything is lost? That there's no point in pushing against Google here? That it doesn't matter?

Please kindly be more clear in your point.

@rysiek um, in part, you miss an important point. It's not the devs (linux phone since Nokia N900, android in reserve) that determine 'what the market will bear'. It's the market. Which means that the lowest bar wins (whose first, easy, cheap, sexy). Which, in turn is a rigged game. It's a problem of monopolies! Breaking those is hard. Been working on it all my life.

@poetaster same. I had Neo FreeRunner, then N900, then Jolla Phone, then Sony Xperia with SailfishOS on it; now Fairphone with CalyxOS on.

There is a bunch of valuable Android-based projects like GrapheneOS and CalyxOS, and if Google keeps closing shit down, these will also go away.

And Google should simply not be allowed to have their way.

@rysiek @mebbie Of course they do, and capable developers adopting things are a necessary step on the way to make these things viable for non-techies. There's no other way to give privacy and choice to all people who deserve it, and Android wasn't one either.

@rysiek you also use the word 'audience'. That's passive. User's who demand it's 'easy', approved by Bank , works with apple pay, etc., etc., are AGENTS. Users must be held accountable. I tell my Son and my GF that every time I rescue their stupid phones. Not that they listen. But they DEPEND on me, and know it! That is Not Good(tm).

@poetaster you in turn use the term "user", which defines the person through the service they use. We can have debates over language all week.

Agreed on people having responsibility. But power is extremely centralized in Google here, and if we can make it a bit less so, if we can make Google's attempts at centralizing it even more that much harder, we absolutely should.