@royal Interesting, I'm only seeing this reply, my question, and your original post....
Same, and I'm on the same instance.
@CharismaticBatman @golemwire Ah, my mistake. Non public scope.
@CharismaticBatman @golemwire Here's my guess.
I think MacDonald sees hell as a process, not as a destination.
What if God saw sin less as actions we do that offend him because he has high standards, and more as an affliction that ruins our lives that he wants us to be free from? Have you ever known a sin like that, something you knew was bad for you and for others that seemed beyond your power (or theirs) to overcome?
God might use any means necessary, even very unpleasant ones, to remove and even destroy sin and its hold on us.
If we trust God, that sounds like salvation.
If we cling tight to the sin, preferring it to God, that might feel like torment.
Either way, God will have his way. Much better to agree with him from the start.
@CharismaticBatman @golemwire Here's my guess.
I think MacDonald sees hell as a process, not as a destination.
What if God saw sin less as actions we do that offend him because he has high standards, and more as an affliction that ruins our lives that he wants us to be free from? Have you ever known a sin like that, something you knew was bad for you and for others that seemed beyond your power (or theirs) to overcome?
God might use any means necessary, even very unpleasant ones, to remove and even destroy sin and its hold on us.
If we trust God, that sounds like salvation.
If we cling tight to the sin, preferring it to God, that might feel like torment.
Either way, God will have his way. Much better to agree with him from the start.
I have a hard time coming up with a concrete understanding of hell, because the only times it's mentioned directly (mainly in the Gospels, IIRC), it's a fairly nebulous concept, and seems to be more of a cultural symbol or a cautionary tale than anything terribly literal.
But in contrast, the Lake of Fire (into which death and hell gets thrown (?!?)) seems a much more vivid and definite image.
I dunno!
I think in terms of a process that purges sin... I believe that's best referred to as grace and sanctification, and not really hell.
I don't think the bible gives us a picture of any place of eternal punishment being purifying or redemptive, sadly.
@CharismaticBatman @royal Well to be clear it is the teaching of Christianity that those who reject Jesus go to the place Hell (or maybe technically the "Lake of Fire" I guess, I don't know the exact theology), and a place of no exit.
That's what's throwing me off with this MacDonald quote here.
I wonder what the context was.
@golemwire @CharismaticBatman I think it would be interesting to ask: if this is what MacDonald is saying, what might his biblical basis be?
@royal @CharismaticBatman I don't know what MacDonald would be trying to say if he meant the place Hell when he said "HELL" in that quote. Since the unsaved "go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46) I doubt it is to "burn the evil out of you".
@CharismaticBatman @royal @golemwire
I agree.
To me, the bible is quite clear, in that the only way to god is throught the sacrifice of christ.
Paul is very specific, that individual deeds can’t redeem us of our guilt. I don’t see, how that would be different for individual suffering, because that would be without christ.
The idea, that sin will lead to temporal suffering in purgatory has been refuted by most protestants since the time of reformation, because it lacks grounding in the bible.
@CharismaticBatman @golemwire I do like the image of death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus has defeated both.
@royal
@CharismaticBatman
@golemwire
I interpret "hell" as: God is the source of all Good things, Evil is the consequence of humanity's choices to turn away from Him, eventually He will leave those that reject Him and they will be left in a world without anything Good anymore. Forever.
@blaue_Fledermaus @royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire
The historical Eastern understanding is that both heaven and hell are experiences of God's love. What is more agonizing than the love of someone you despise?
There are a minority of Cappadocian fathers (most notably St. Gregory of Nyssa) who believed that in the end, even the hardest of hearts will be softened by God's love. This pretty much implies universalism. Like I said, not a majority view.
@blaue_Fledermaus @royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire
And of course, this also implies that post-death spiritual development is possible, which I certainly believe to be true. I certainly want it to be true of myself. As C.S. Lewis puts it, "Further up and further in!"
@blaue_Fledermaus @royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire
It also puts me firmly in the free-will camp (as opposed to predestination). God does not take away my ability to choose Him at the time of my death.
@ossobuffo
@royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire
There's also Martin Luther's concept of Bound Will, as he was opposed to both predestination and salvation by works, where we can choose anything related to material life, but our sinful nature binds us to saying "no" to God, and those reached by grace have it rebound by God to "yes".
The question then is "who will be reached by Grace?"
@blaue_Fledermaus @royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire
From a historical Lutheran perspective, then, would "choosing God" be considered works? If so, I can certainly see how the Augsburg council (of the generation after Luther) and the Patriarch of Constantinople failed to come to an accord.
@ossobuffo
@royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire
In this context, yes.
@blaue_Fledermaus @royal @CharismaticBatman @golemwire A fundamental difference, then, in the understanding of the implications of the Fall. Building on Augustinian foundations, as I understand things, at the Fall the image of God in the human soul was irreparably damaged, and the human person became incapable of choosing the Supremely Good (or, to use Calvin’s terminology, the human became totally depraved). This damage was passed down to all descendants of Adam and Eve.
But if you choose the model of “ancestral sin” rather than “original sin,” what happened at the Fall was that the image was darkened rather than shattered, and Christ came to restore the brightness and clarity of that image. Because the image is still there, and because the guilt of the sin of our first parents is not directly imputed to us, and because Christ has joined the human person to the divine Person, we are called (and able) to choose the Prototype of the image in which we were created. We don’t have to wait for the grace of God’s calling; because of the Incarnation, that grace has been bestowed on the entire universe.
@ossobuffo @blaue_Fledermaus @CharismaticBatman @golemwire I would add that in Jesus God has already united himself with all of humanity and with every human. God has chosen us and there is nothing we can do to escape his love.
Some of us may not like that at all, but to me, it is hard to imagine our obstinence ever winning out against God's persistence and patience.
@royal @blaue_Fledermaus @CharismaticBatman @golemwire Exactly. But because God is love, and love does not force itself upon the object of its love, God has given us the freedom to reject Him. To take away that freedom is to make genuine love impossible.
@ossobuffo @royal @blaue_Fledermaus @golemwire
I guess the question is then,
"God respects our freedom, but does He respect our ignorance?"
Or in other words, "How obstinate a refusal does a refusal of His love have to be to be counted as a refusal?"
I think this is where I rest on my somewhat kitschy phrase, "aspirational universalist." I sure do hope everyone makes it. As far as how exactly God judges and deems some worthy of eternal torment, my reply is merely, "hopefully never."
I'm definitely not a good Calvinist. ^__^
@CharismaticBatman @ossobuffo @royal @blaue_Fledermaus @golemwire Insightful discussion, friends. C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce depicts my hope best hope for those who continue to reject God. I'd love for God to win over everyone, if possible.
I always think of the Eagles song, "Desparado, why don't you come to your senses?" As Jesus said to Paul, "It's hard for you to kick against the goads." Our current experience of a fallen world is due to God's patience, according to 2 Peter 3:9. Because of his patience, desiring all us desparados to come in from the cold, he's holding back the fire and judgment and destruction promised in 2 Peter 3:7.
@ossobuffo @blaue_Fledermaus @royal@theres.life @CharismaticBatman@theres.life @golemwire@librem.one
I have nothing intelligent to add to this thread but I’m enjoying reading it. Thanks! (@orthoheterodox — have you seen this? It seems up your alley.)
@royal @CharismaticBatman To most of that: word. Not to be argumentative, but this is a big deal theologically; where do you go if you die rejecting Jesus? Matthew 25:41 says that you go "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". (Matthew 25:31-46 is a great passage by the way — a dark topic, but a critical one.)
@golemwire Check out the rest of the thread.