on Halium/droidian/linux mobile
really need to write a blog post about this but summarising my thoughts for now:
* Droidian and other Halium based projects are not Linux mobile
* They shouldn't be carelessly compared with #postmarketOS/Mobian, they are much closer to Android in terms of tech stack/complexity/longevity
* Basically the WSL of #LinuxMobile
But, still good, still valuable for making your device more-free, and for the growing app ecosystem.
but i am slowly losing my mind every time i see someone describe a mediatek phone running a proprietary BSP as "real linux mobile" you are warping what little "brand recognition" this community has and it will reflect poorly on all of us when more light is shed on the underlying software stacks and long-term unmaintainable downstream hacks
@cas you'll certainly have to elaborate in a long-read, because I don't see what's so different about them and how is their userspace proprietary. Seems to me like the only difference is the kernel-ish side of things where they simply provide a FOSS compatibility layer to proprietary drivers. Which is arguably better for many devices than having them run a mainline kernel with worse drivers support. Of course their kernel isn't gonna be upgradable, but at least it will work better.
@mks_h many of the drivers are running in userspace, not the kernel (gotta protect that IP you know...). They basically run the whole Android system in a container.
For graphics to work, unless im mistaken, this requires using libhybris to inject proprietary libraries into processes. I could be wrong here though.
@cas for the first part — tomato tomato. Technically it is userspace, practically it is a separate system part related to the kernel (so, kernel-ish). I wouldn't call it "proprietary userspace" since it isn't the userspace people talk about (DEs, and such), just a compatibility layer for drivers.
The second point is more interesting, tho.
@mks_h @cas Maybe tomato tomato indeed, but you're missing the point, which is "proprietary drivers". The reason they're in userspace and not part of the kernel is licensing, and for me as a user it doesn't make a tangible difference - it's still as proprietary as it gets. I can (reluctantly) accept some proprietary firmware, but I'm long past accepting proprietary drivers and middleware on user's OS.
@mks_h @cas We've got devices with functional OSS drivers these days, it's not 2005 anymore.
Sure, some devices are more hopeless than others and require compromises. Empowering their users is still desirable, but pretending that their problems just aren't there won't help anyone. Otherwise we could all just use Android, cause it "gets the job done".
@dos @cas it feels like we are talking in weird extremes despite having a similar opinion. To get back to the topic — they are still "Linux mobile", just with a bit of a predicament. And separating them into an entirely different category is simply FOSS elitism (no offence).
Although it isn't 2005 anymore, only two-three devices have *nominally* functional camera on the mainline. So I wouldn't be too picky on which kernel to use.
@mks_h @cas Not that long ago it was 0, and today there are more behind the corner. It would stay at 0 forever if we were all content with Hybris and decided it's the best we can do.
Ultimately it's a matter of communication. The distinction is important enough to matter, and if a phrase "real Linux phone" can mean hybrisphone now, then what is the thing I'm using? "Really real Linux phone, for realz, no backsies"? 😂 I can't even say that with conviction - it's not mainline, just mainline-ish!
@mks_h @cas I don't know who you are and haven't said anything about you (except that you missed the point at the beginning). I only see what you have typed and choose the most important points of my position to fit in under 500 characters. If what you're interested in instead is assessing maturity, then I'm out. Goodbye 🤷
@dos @cas I'd appreciate it if you had, like, a bit of maturity in this dumb Internet argument. In the first paragraph you aren't even arguing against me, you're just arguing some strawman you imagine me to be. Like, I specifically said that I don't mean that mainlining is futile and shouldn't be done. I'm simply not arguing that. Man, be on point.
You can call your mobile Linux whatever the hell you like, but I'd call it "mainline" mobile Linux. Because it is a subcategory for those who care.