@rah wouldn't that all exclude those from being feminine characteristics though?

@restioson Yes. Either a characteristic is masculine, feminine, or neither. If we don't discriminate then everything is in the "neither" category. That's fine if that's how you want to see the world but here we're explicitly communicating about masculinity. If we refuse to discriminate then nothing is masculine and the conversation is done.

@restioson And note we're talking about masculinity and femininity, *not* men and women. Any characteristic can be embodied by any person. We are discriminating between categories that are not clearly understood. Which is odd if you think about it: human beings have been around for 300,000 years and we still don't understand masculinity and femininity. These qualities are transcendent.

@rah how are the transcendent?

@restioson They seem that way to me. They have an ineffable quality but they exist and they're distinct.

@rah surely transcendence would exclude them from being social constructs (which I think they are)?

@restioson Yes. To me, masculinity and feminitity are about neither gender nor sex.