@brainblasted @sean @amsomniac they're not supporting hateful content, you just want to force your own particular ideology on them and punish them for something that has not happened.
@hector @brainblasted @amsomniac @sean They're not supporting it as opinion so far but they are:
- propagating it by potentially letting it be hosted on their services
- potentially letting oppression happens (which isn't neutral at all)
- propagating it by potentially letting it be hosted on their services
- potentially letting oppression happens (which isn't neutral at all)
@lanodan @amsomniac @brainblasted @sean do you apply the same standard to the Internet service providers that route communications worldwide, for not filtering every bit that passes through their wires for something that someone could deem offensive or hateful? What about the guy who sells someone a megaphone, do you impute him with the responsibility for whatever they shout through it?
@hector @amsomniac @brainblasted @sean There is a large difference between a connection provider, a server hoster and a service hoster.
A connection provider or a server hoster should just limit technical abuse and stuff that is illegal, they are just there to provide roads basically.
A service provider should also do at least a bit of moderation.
GMail/Yahoo/Hotmail/... allowing spam to be sent via their server is a huge mess.
To continue on your metaphor, this is the difference between selling/renting a megaphone and holding the megaphone.
A connection provider or a server hoster should just limit technical abuse and stuff that is illegal, they are just there to provide roads basically.
A service provider should also do at least a bit of moderation.
GMail/Yahoo/Hotmail/... allowing spam to be sent via their server is a huge mess.
To continue on your metaphor, this is the difference between selling/renting a megaphone and holding the megaphone.
@lanodan @amsomniac @brainblasted @sean you made a distinction between two types of service businesses but have not provided an underlying reason as to why some of them supposedly have an ethical obligation to "moderate" what their users are doing and some do not.
@hector @lanodan @amsomniac @brainblasted @sean
I would say that they have an obligation to address actual abuse. that includes coordination of harassment, doxing, etc.
the problem is not the initial speech, if they want to say that white people are best, but they don't actually contribute to harassment or doxing, then there's no actionable abuse -- the person is just ignorant and has shitty views.
but. here's the thing. those people rarely stop at holding those views, and instead perform actionable abuse such as spreading dox or harassing another user. service providers in the NAFTA zone are obligated to act on these actionable abuses whether they are reported or not due to the CDA of 1996.
what people are asking for is for Purism to actually follow the law and moderate according to the standard established by the CDA.
if you want to be a racist asshole, that's your God given right, as long as your opinions do not turn into active harassment. the problem is that these people generally don't know when to quit and that's when they rightly get booted off a platform.
I would say that they have an obligation to address actual abuse. that includes coordination of harassment, doxing, etc.
the problem is not the initial speech, if they want to say that white people are best, but they don't actually contribute to harassment or doxing, then there's no actionable abuse -- the person is just ignorant and has shitty views.
but. here's the thing. those people rarely stop at holding those views, and instead perform actionable abuse such as spreading dox or harassing another user. service providers in the NAFTA zone are obligated to act on these actionable abuses whether they are reported or not due to the CDA of 1996.
what people are asking for is for Purism to actually follow the law and moderate according to the standard established by the CDA.
if you want to be a racist asshole, that's your God given right, as long as your opinions do not turn into active harassment. the problem is that these people generally don't know when to quit and that's when they rightly get booted off a platform.
@kaniini @amsomniac @brainblasted @lanodan @sean well so long as we're skiing down the slippery slopes here, let's speculate on where speech restriction policies lead. First you kick off all the bigots who threaten the rights of racial minorities. Then you kick off all the misogynists who oppose abortion and thereby threaten the rights of women. Then you start kicking off everyone who isn't a card-carrying member of the Communist Party because they are actively threatening the rights of the proletariat. Does this seem like a good trend?
@hector @amsomniac @brainblasted @lanodan @sean
it is important to note that the CDA does not target legitimate speech. it targets actionable abuses, such as doxing, spam and coordinated harassment. when service providers do their part and abide by their CDA obligations, it helps to actually promote free speech on the net, by proving that self-regulation works.
the CDA is also what makes federated networks stay out of the crosshairs of regulators (on this side of the pond anyway). but we have to work together to keep it that way.
it is important to note that the CDA does not target legitimate speech. it targets actionable abuses, such as doxing, spam and coordinated harassment. when service providers do their part and abide by their CDA obligations, it helps to actually promote free speech on the net, by proving that self-regulation works.
the CDA is also what makes federated networks stay out of the crosshairs of regulators (on this side of the pond anyway). but we have to work together to keep it that way.
@kaniini @amsomniac @brainblasted @lanodan @sean CDA CDA CDA CDA blah blah blah blah. You think the laws protect you? Because they don't.
@hector @amsomniac @kaniini @lanodan @sean @brainblasted the laws doesn't do shit against a well organized hate mob. you can't sue an angry mob.
@jeff @hector @amsomniac @brainblasted @kaniini @sean And how are angry mobs even done? Ignoring them and letting organised hate.
This isn't even police, this is basically caring about another person.
This isn't even police, this is basically caring about another person.
@lanodan @hector @amsomniac @kaniini @sean @brainblasted you didn't even read what their site says did you? "Our goal
This community is dedicated to providing a harassment-free experience for everyone. We do not tolerate harassment of participants in any form." https://librem.one/conduct/
This community is dedicated to providing a harassment-free experience for everyone. We do not tolerate harassment of participants in any form." https://librem.one/conduct/
@jeff @lanodan @amsomniac @brainblasted @hector @sean
the problem isn't what their CoC says, it's in what their actions and publicly stated views (such as in their matrix chat) are.
they have no mechanism to actually operate their service in compliance with the CDA, as they cannot even view what users are publishing via their service.
the problem isn't what their CoC says, it's in what their actions and publicly stated views (such as in their matrix chat) are.
they have no mechanism to actually operate their service in compliance with the CDA, as they cannot even view what users are publishing via their service.
@jeff @amsomniac @brainblasted @hector @lanodan @sean
like, if somebody signs up and spams affiliate links to canadian-scam-pharmacy.info, they are so disconnected from what is going out of their instance, that they will have no idea this is going on.
this is the problem. they can say that they care about abuse and harassment and so on all they want, but they are not compliant with the CDA if they have no way of monitoring what their service is doing. mail servers and AP servers and so on, log what's coming in and out for a reason, and that reason is, amongst other things, legal compliance.
like, if somebody signs up and spams affiliate links to canadian-scam-pharmacy.info, they are so disconnected from what is going out of their instance, that they will have no idea this is going on.
this is the problem. they can say that they care about abuse and harassment and so on all they want, but they are not compliant with the CDA if they have no way of monitoring what their service is doing. mail servers and AP servers and so on, log what's coming in and out for a reason, and that reason is, amongst other things, legal compliance.
@kaniini @amsomniac @brainblasted @hector @jeff @lanodan @sean Laconica is like 10 years old right? Has anyone actually been brought to court over Fediverse stuff yet?
@pox @amsomniac @brainblasted @hector @jeff @lanodan @sean
there was an incident with diaspora where instance admins had to scramble quickly to become compliant with the CDA -- ISIL started using diaspora to try to recruit new members.
deadsuperhero can probably tell more about how it played out, but it was a really fucked situation. one which can be mitigated by knowing what is going on with your service.
there was an incident with diaspora where instance admins had to scramble quickly to become compliant with the CDA -- ISIL started using diaspora to try to recruit new members.
deadsuperhero can probably tell more about how it played out, but it was a really fucked situation. one which can be mitigated by knowing what is going on with your service.
@kaniini @pox @amsomniac @brainblasted @hector @jeff @lanodan
It was a super shitty time. The press was blasting Diaspora and suddenly everyone was pooh-poohing decentralized communication systems for the very things that make them resilient and strong. It's like if a hate group were using a self-hosted Wordpress, and journalists singled out Wordpress as enabling hate speech.
In the case of Diaspora and ISIL, what we ended up doing was that the admins of the biggest hubs all compared notes on which people were spreading ISIL messages and what countries they were coming from.
We scrubbed them off of our servers, and made sure their email addresses wouldn't work on other ones - but it was all basically a gentleman's agreement between various podmins. It's not an infallible solution, and there's literally nothing stopping any group of people from grabbing off-the-shelf software and setting it up for whatever purposes they have.
It was a super shitty time. The press was blasting Diaspora and suddenly everyone was pooh-poohing decentralized communication systems for the very things that make them resilient and strong. It's like if a hate group were using a self-hosted Wordpress, and journalists singled out Wordpress as enabling hate speech.
In the case of Diaspora and ISIL, what we ended up doing was that the admins of the biggest hubs all compared notes on which people were spreading ISIL messages and what countries they were coming from.
We scrubbed them off of our servers, and made sure their email addresses wouldn't work on other ones - but it was all basically a gentleman's agreement between various podmins. It's not an infallible solution, and there's literally nothing stopping any group of people from grabbing off-the-shelf software and setting it up for whatever purposes they have.
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@sean @hector @amsomniac @pox @kaniini @lanodan @jeff @brainblasted press is press, just pay them more than the other side and they'll shut up.
